An Interview with Ann Druffel

by Brent Raynes

ANN DRUFFEL began investigating UFOs back in 1957 with the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena (NICAP). She is the author of How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction, Firestorm: Dr. James E. McDonald’s Fight For UFO Science, and was the coauthor of The Tujunga Canyon Contacts, which she wrote with parapsychologist D. Scott Rogo. Besides these works she has contributed numerous articles and given many lectures on UFOs at UFO conferences, symposiums, and civic and educational groups.

Editor: You’ve been very active in ufology, going all the way back to 1957. You’ve interviewed many witnesses, written numerous articles, done many lectures and been featured on radio and TV interview programs ­ your investigations eventually took you into the complex and controversial realm of so-called alien abduction reports.

Ann Druffel: Yes, that’s where the field went, in 1973, and we went with it.

Editor: And then, as you pointed out, in your 1998 book, How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction ­ interestingly, it didn’t really become a significant part of the UFO scene until the 1980s when thousands of abductees came out of the woodwork largely, it seems, in response to the writings of Budd Hopkins, author of Intruders, and Whitley Streiber, author of Communion, which was in sharp contrast, as you pointed out, to the ufology of 1966 when only two abductions cases were known, Betty and Barney Hill, and the Brazilian farmer Antonio Villas- Boas.

Ann Druffel: Well, we had another gal down here that we proved that she was psychologically damaged, but she was telling an abduction story. We never wrote her up because it did not seem to be valid.

It might have been valid but you have to consider the person that’s reporting it. They have to be rational, sound, productive people.

But what you say about how it didn’t proliferate until the 1980s, we found out here that from 1973 it proliferated just absolutely amazingly. The number of cases escalated all of a sudden from the time of the Charles Hickson and Calvin Parker (case) in Pascagoula (Mississippi). That was one of the first early ones in 1973. Back in 1973, we had no peace at all. By 1980, a couple of books had been written about it, and that’s why you say there were a tremendous number coming out then.

Editor: Right. Obviously the books struck a responsive chord with many people who hadn’t previously come forward.

AD: Yes, exactly.

Editor: As you were a significant part in investigating the emergence of this initial activity could you describe your initial reaction and your involvement, and how and why you came to write a book with the provocative title of How to Defend Yourself Against Alien Abduction?

AD: Well, starting in 1973, as I said we began to find cases out in this area, and then in 1975 there was a whole group of young women in Tujunga, which is an isolated mountainous area to the northeast of Los Angeles proper, and these five gals knew each other over a period of years. They were good friends. Altogether there were seven abduction reports from these five women, and all of these women were productive, they were sane, rational human beings. We couldn’t ignore it because researchers at that time were beginning to think that perhaps the character of the field had changed itself, that perhaps occupants from UFOs were contacting human beings and abducting them onto their ships for their own reasons, because this is what the contactees ­ or the abductees ­ were telling us, you see, and this is what this phenomenon was telling these abductees. So we got it third hand, shall we say.

But the Tujunga Canyon contacts were a result of the seven cases of abduction reported by these five gals. They were the Tujunga Canyon contacts because most of them did occur in this area, which is really what we call a window area. There are so many strange phenomena reported from that area.

The Tujunga Canyon contacts was presented as a book, apparently of abduction reports by sane witnesses and it was the second book in the field to do so. Budd Hopkins was first and mine followed closely afterwards just a matter of months.

Editor: Right. His was called Missing Time.

AD: Yes. Now in 1980, our book was published. It was co-authored with D. Scott Rogo who was a parapsychologist. Then by 1989, when I believe it was New American Library wanted to bring out a paperback edition, we expanded it with two new chapters to bring it up-to-date, and it was at that time that I realized, almost abruptly, that three out of the five women were able to break the altered state in which they had perceived these abductions. So I began to think, “Well now if three out of five could do it from among the Tujunga witnesses, what about other people?” So I was thinking at that time that there were so many abduction cases coming to us ­ we were just swamped ­ we could not take care of all of them ­ and this was all over the United States.

Editor: Right. You had a data base of about 200 people you were in contact with.

AD: At that time I did, yes. So I figured what’s the use of continuing to investigate abduction reports when you can’t do anything about them, but if there are three out of five witnesses in Tujunga that were able to break the abduction scenario ­ to get away from the entities ­ to wake themselves fully and find the abduction scenario completely gone ­ and most of them were able to rid themselves of the visits permanently, with certain resistance techniques. So I went with this question into the field and this became my area of exploration, because if these experiences were something in which human beings were not true victims ­ in other words, they couldn’t do anything about the abduction, it’s worthwhile studying the people who can end them.

Editor: And when you first introduced these ideas some of the top abduction researchers in the field had some resistance to your resistance techniques, didn’t they?

AD: (Laughs) I like the way you put that.

Editor: It’s kind of like, “Resistance is futile,” as the Borge on Star Trek would say.

AD: Yes. I started writing articles that were published in the MUFON Journal, in CUFOS, and UFO Magazine, and a newsletter that was coming out of Canada ­ a very fine, objective one ­ and certain people who were researchers themselves objected violently, and there was even one psychologist who was very prominent at the time and he said it was not right to even mention to these people that other people can break these abduction scenarios and end them, because it will make the ones who can’t end them feel bad.

Editor: Right. But then you found that techniques for resistance did work for abductees and actually stopped the situations from reoccurring, a number of them claimed, and in your studies you found 70 successful resisters, right?

AD: I found 70, and as of now I have 90. I am still collecting cases. When I get a data base of 200, I’ve been told by scientifically oriented people that if you have a data base of 200 cases of one thing or another you can do significant statistical studies.

Editor: Now in your book ­ we may be detouring a little, but it’s all interrelated ­ you make some controversial points that fly in contrast to what many in the UFO field tend to believe. For example, in describing the evolution of the abduction experience of the 1980s and from the earlier reports you note that there were no alien transplant/missing fetus elements or hybrid babies, or implants, in these initial reports. Even alien descriptions varied. Since a lot of this information emerged from hypnotic regression of the abduction experiences, often conducted by the researchers themselves, you suspect telepathic contamination from the researchers themselves besides just plain suggestion.

AD: I know that the researchers in the field, like Budd Hopkins and John Mack, are fine and objective people, and I know that they would never deliberately lead a hypnotized person to say what they would hope they would say that would fit in with their own hypothesizes. But there is such a thing as telepathic communication. It has been written up in parapsychological journals. The hypnotist, and the person hypnotized, don’t even realize what’s going on. But it is a fact. It might not happen all of the time, but it does happen during the hypnotic sessions and I feel that this is maybe part of the reason why researchers who have their own particular theories, as to what this phenomenon is, have this in the back of their mind, and somehow a hypnotized person is wanting to please the person hypnotizing them. This is purely subconscious, but that’s part of what is going on. So they’re picking up on what the person doing the hypnosis really expects them to say or wants them to say, subconsciously, and so they say it.

Editor: Right. Also you found, in your own investigations with medical people into the popular alien implant and missing fetus tales that you could come up with no solid, scientific evidence or verification that anything like that was happening. Right?

AD: Yes, there were two or three cases of missing fetus reports in this area, and a very fine researcher, a Dr. Richard Neal, who died several years ago, but he took on one of those cases and he proved that what had happened to the woman was not a fetus that was missing all of a sudden - connected with an abduction scenario - but that it was a completely normal, gynecological abnormality which occurs during some pregnancies, and I found the same thing. I obtained a grant from the Fund for UFO Research, because I had a very fine case where this woman was completely honest, rational, reliable and she was claiming a missing fetus and I used this grant of several hundred dollars to talk to her gynecologist and he explained to me just exactly the common gynecological abnormality that had occurred in this case. So these cases of missing fetuses are not followed out to their end. They are accepted now by certain parts of the field and by many researchers as true missing fetuses that have been stolen by these so-called entities.

Editor: Right. That’s interesting. Speaking of the psychic, you also consider cases involving alien encounters in the out-of-body state. This is something that I think even - which surprised a lot of people in the field - when Raymond Fowler came to believe really the same thing. Could you describe how your own evolution occurred there?

AD: Of course, I have been interested in parapsychology since 1969, when there were certain elements - psychic elements - were entering into ordinary UFO sightings and episodes of people getting pictures of UFOs from a distance. When I began to study psychic research and parapsychology, of course I did come across the idea of astral travel and out-of-body, which is very prominent in the parapsychological field. Then finally I met an abductee who told me specifically during a hypnotic session, when I was still using hypnosis myself, that she was out of her body, that she was astral traveling, that the entities knew she was out of her body - but this was the state that this particular abduction was taking place. So I began to give much more credence to the hypothesis that some of them occur out of body.

Editor: She was having her abduction happen out of body, or actually there was an abduction going on while you had her under hypnosis?

AD: Oh no. We were discussing what was happening to her and she said, “I’m going now through the window with these entities - they are taking me through the window - and I looked back on my bed and there’s my body lying there.” And she said, “I’m not in my body. I am in an astral state.” This is an out-of-body experience, but it’s very, very real to her. If she hadn’t looked back she probably would have perceived it as a physically real experience.

If we could train abductees, who have frequent experiences, to look back and see - to the bed, where they know where this episode started - and see whether or not they can see their body there - if we could train them to be alert during the scenario and to think logically during this scenario - which would be difficult - I think we’d get a lot more reports that the abduction experiences occur in an out-of-body state.

Editor: Yes, this reminds me of something I read by Keith Thompson in Angels and Aliens where he was talking about if maybe more people who were abductees were trained in meditational, tai chi type techniques and could sort of go into the experience with a more lucid state and interact with it.

AD: Exactly! What is needed is what we call lucid dreaming. A person can train themselves when they’re in a true dream to make the dream go in the direction that they want it to. If it’s going in a frightening direction, they can lucidly in their own mind turn the event in the dream away toward something more pleasant. As you say, if we could get this lucidity working in abduction scenarios it would be of great value to us because we would know whether or not these entities are really in charge or whether it’s something that can be affected by lucidity.

Editor: Yes. An interesting notion.

You pointed out, in the early occupant reports, prior to the wave of abduction stories that began back around 1973, encounters were different. They were generally outside, outdoors, the entities were variously described as near human in appearance to maybe robots, but they preferred to land in isolated, out of the way locations and seemed bent on avoiding any form of interaction with humans. If someone came too close they were temporarily paralyzed, often reportedly accomplished it seemed with the use of a small instrument held in one of the occupants hands. Soon as they could, the entities then entered the craft and quickly would depart the scene. This is in contrast, as you point out, to the abduction of people today in their homes who are paralyzed, or somehow controlled by harassing, intrusive aliens, and seemingly in an altered state during these kinds of experiences. In fact, you’re helping to organize a UFO conference early in September where the speaker’s presentations will be grouped separately. Abductions, altered states, and physical encounters, physical evidence. Again not an approach in this field that most have followed.

AD: Yes, this is an entirely new kind of conference. We’re advertizing it as something that should be done to divide the UFO research field into two separate phenomena. The unidentified, seemingly metallic aeroforms that traverse earth’s atmosphere and are chased by jet pilots and are caught on radar and are seen by multiple witnesses, and sometimes photographed by reliable people. But there are no occupants connected with these. It’s the craft that is the most important. To separate that ufology from what we call abductology, which involves so-called occupants of UFOs who abduct victims, as they say, from sleeping states or lonely roads.

There are the metallic craft where no occupants are seen and then there’s where the occupants are seen, victimizing human beings and taking them aboard a so-called craft. They are two seemingly similar studies but there’s so many dissimilarities between the two phenomena that it’s certainly wise to try and separate them and see what you can get.

Editor: Right. If I understand you correctly then what you’re describing is that at a distance the data is more objective - you’re looking at a craft - as you get closer it’s sort of what British ufologist Jenny Randles calls the Oz Effect, where a person enters an altered state, which may be connected with mind tampering, energy field - as Persinger has said - of course, Persinger has a concept where it’s an earth plasma, earth light or something.

AD: Well, researchers who are presenting this theory - this indicates to me that they think that it’s one phenomenon instead of two separate. In other words, if a person gets too close to the craft then they enter into the altered state in which an abduction can occur. But that is not part of my hypothesis. Because from the very earliest days of 1952 - when I entered the field in 1957 - we had occupant reports and these involved landed UFOs in very isolated places where sometimes a group of witnesses would come upon a landed craft and the entity would appear startled and they would scuttle back into the craft and take off. So there was no oz effect involved in cases like that. I respect Jenny Randles’s work. She’s probably onto another aspect I have not studied, but these early occupants were of all shapes and sizes. They ranged from about 8 feet tall to about 3 feet tall and some were robotic, some were like machines even. Some were fully human looking, but they did not have the huge grey eyes that have become so popular since Whitley Streiber’s book was published. It seems Whitley Streiber’s book with the grey alien with the huge eyes has taken over a great part of the field and a lot of people are reporting the same kind of grey alien so that now we call them greys.

Editor: Of course, with Betty Hill’s star map that Margie Fisher connected with Zeti Reticuli and all of a sudden we had contacts reporting that that’s where their aliens were from.

AD: Absolutely, and the same with Billy Meire’s when he said the craft were from the Pleiades - he channeled information from the things he said he photographed. Even now people are reporting craft from the Pleiades. Or channeled information from the Pleiadeans.

Editor: You give credence to the speculations of some researchers that so-called greys and other aliens may be interdimensional in nature or at least emerge into our world from a part of the electromagnetic spectrum that is not normally visible to us. You even compare the Celtic fairies, the Muslim Jinn, and the Native American little people or trickster spirits to the modern equivalent of greys.

AD: Now this thing about them living or emerging from a part of the electromagnetic spectrum that is not normally visible to us or can’t even be sensed by us at all, even with instruments, that comes from Jacques Vallee’s theory. I go mostly into the hypothesis that these creatures might emerge from what you call hidden realms, other dimension, or even hidden in this world, like folkloric tales talk about these types of creatures living alongside us in the world but hidden from us. Now whatever that means I don’t really know but there is the word dimension, or hidden realm, or Jacques Vallee’s theory - a part of the electromagnetic spectrum that we know absolutely know nothing about.

Editor: Right. And there certainly are those stories that are very similar to the modern abduction cases, or alien/entity cases. In fact, you’ve met some Muslim Americans who shared details about the Jinn with you that I think caused you to be quite interested in it. One experience that was actually encountered something that was very similar to the alien abduction phenomenon.

AD: Yes. There’s a very large Islamic population, mostly from Iran, that lives in Los Angeles. I made friends with certain of them because I have learned from Gordon Creighton, who first advanced the Jinn theory - he pointed out that there were six specific characteristics of so-called Jinn or Celtic fairies or Buddhist elementals - whatever they’re called in any culture or any language - there are six characteristics in common with our own American abducting greys, or reptilian or whatever you want to call them. It’s very interesting what he came up with.

These creatures ­ the Jinn’s of the Muslim religion and the elementals in the Buddhist religion ­ they can materialize and dematerialize, and so can our abducting creatures. They shape shift in various forms, they delight in harassing and traumatizing human beings ­ for their own purpose, I don’t know why. They reportedly abduct human beings and transport them long distances in a matter of seconds, and that’s what happens here, and the Jinns, the elementals, and our own abducting greys take a sexual interest in human beings.

So there’s a whole list of characteristics, but down through the millennia, in every major culture of the world, and in many minor cultures, they all have these same folkloric stories, and even religious and philosophical texts in some of the countries about this third order of creation, as the Muslim’s call it. They aren’t angels, they aren’t devils, they aren’t human beings. They’re something in between that share our world with us in a hidden state.

Editor: That’s really interesting. Of course, Vallee wrote about a lot of these things in his Passport to Magonia.

AD: Yes, he did. He was one of the early researchers to bring forth the idea that these types of creatures have been described in folklore from many, many nations and countries and cultures.

Editor: And you have investigated a remarkable series of alien encounters reported by one Reverend Harrison Bailey, who even managed to take a couple of revealing Polaroid pictures of what appeared to be shape shifting aliens.

AD: Yes. There were more than a couple. We were working on a couple, computer enhancing them for purposes of my book, How to Defend Against Alien Abduction, but since then Rev. Bailey has agreed to speak at our NUFOC conference on September 6th in North Hollywood, and so we’ve gone back to some of the other pictures - he had a whole series of pictures connected with his last encounter experience, and we are computer enhancing some of the other pictures and coming up with more, additional information. It’s exciting that Rev. Bailey is actually going to speak from the podium, because he has never done this before. He’s a retiring man, but we’ve become good friends over the years. We’ve been working together for 25 years ­ so he has agreed to be one of our speakers.

Editor: Now with Rev. Bailey, his entities materialized and shape shifted, didn’t they?

AD: They did in his encounter in his apartment on the morning of November 1, 1978, when he got the photos of them. They shape shifted several times.

Editor: What was that like?

AD: He got pictures - about 15 as I remember - Polaroid. At first, when he saw them, they appeared as faces forming against his window shade. He took a picture of them then, and since then we’ve enhanced that picture and the features on the faces have come out quite remarkably. At least on one of them that is not in the shadow like the other one is. Then the next time he photographed them - he can’t explain how this happened - but apparently they had gone behind two Halloween masks on his small table, because he had intended to go to a Halloween party the night before, but hadn’t felt well and hadn’t gone. Behind the Halloween masks there was something like what you’d say ectoplasm forming arms and legs out of these two Halloween masks and they told him, telepathically ­ he had asked them, ‘Please may I take your pictures so I can show scientists that something is really going on?’ They said, “Let us hide behind something because you can’t photograph us just in the state that we are.’ So this is the second, third, or fourth picture in the form of ectoplasm, then, all of a sudden, the two of them - there were two entities - they were dashing through the door of his bathroom, which had no other exit. He had a studio apartment. He was startled, but he got his Polaroid camera up and he managed to get a picture of both of them as they fled through the door, one by one. He got two pictures.

But in these two pictures I don’t know if they’re in ectoplasmic form, but the form is very similar to what we’d call a grey, long, thin limbs, a big head, small, thin shoulders. Things like that. When we enhanced the pictures we could see there was a shredding effect, particularly from the right side of the body of one of them, as if it were dematerializing as it went through the door, because when he followed this one through the door he couldn’t see it anymore, but he saw what he said was like a spool of twine going through the wall and disappearing. We have to make sense of what he’s saying to the best of our ability. But the thing is dematerializing. In other words, it’s shape shifting.

Editor: Were they going around the house wearing the masks?

AD: No, he has no pictures of those. He doesn’t have complete memory of every event as it took place, but when he woke up the next morning he remembered, “Well I was visited last night” and he saw this pack of Polaroid pictures nearby on the table. He realized that he had actually photographed them, and it was then that he looked at the photos and then later gave them to me. But he does not remember how they materialized behind the masks like ectoplasm from the faces on the wall, and he doesn’t remember how they got out from the masks into a more physical form, jumping through the door.

Editor: Of course, his initial 1951 experience in Illinois was pretty much just a textbook close encounter with two occupants that I think appeared inside a door on a landed craft, that had landed in a forest area. That was really where it all started.

AD: Yes.

Editor: And then there were continuing contacts. They kept giving him a telepathic message to spread the word about their existence.

AD: That they meant us no harm, but they wanted to land. They didn’t want to be shot. This was his message he was supposed to get to the scientific community ­ that they were here, they wanted to land, they meant us no harm. And Rev. Bailey, all through the years, kept telling them go to a scientist. He doesn’t have the power to get this out to the public or to the scientific community. They kept bothering him, you see, until he took his pictures, and then he was never bothered again, which indicates to me that if a person is aware enough during a scenario like this - during an altered state scenario - that if you can resist enough to get actual pictures of them, they don’t like that. Because it shows more of their true nature than they want to reveal perhaps? I don’t know. That they can materialize, dematerialize, and shape shift.

I think that more abductees should ask them, “Can I take your picture?” Like Rev. Bailey did.

Editor: Now there are nine resistance techniques that are listed in your book, How to Defend Yourself Again Alien Abduction. Let me go down through the list and you can describe some about each one. The first one is Mental Struggle: Block their mind control.

AD: Yes. This was a technique employed by Emily Cronin, who was one of the Tujunga Canyon gals, and she described it to me. I didn’t make it up. Since then many, many abductees have told me that they have used the same technique.

Most of the time, when an abduction scenario occurs, and the witness is aware that this is occurring, they feel paralyzed. That’s partly the reason why a lot of the abductees just let the aliens have their way because they’re assured, “We’ll let you go afterwards.” But Emily Cronin was a very strong minded person and she didn’t like the fact that these creatures were harassing her in her own house, and so when she felt the paralysis it occurred to her that if she could break the paralysis herself then she would wake up entirely or somehow it would end the abduction scenario. So she tried and tried to move one little finger, one little toe, and as soon as she got this... breaking the paralysis, the abduction scenario ended and the creatures vanished.

Editor: Then we get on to number two. Physical Struggle: Fight back.

AD: Yes. There’s a gal named Morgana Van Klausen. She’s an example of Physical Struggle. She too is a very strong minded person with a strong sense of her own rights to privacy. What we can inalienable rights here in this country. This creature appeared at the side of her bed and she had memories of being abducted before ­ faint memories ­ and when she saw this creature in the middle of the night and her husband didn’t wake up and she couldn’t get any help from anybody she just suddenly rose out of bed, in a fury, and just pushed it, in sheer righteous anger, and as she pushed it, it dematerialized. But before it dematerialized she could feel the softness of the creature’s body. She said it felt like velvet, but once it had been pushed away it vanished and she was left standing up, wide awake, by the side of her bed.

Editor: And, of course, you have the Patsy Wingate case, where she actually snapped the neck.

AD: Yes. Patsy is such a wonderful person. She had been abducted many times. Just bothered incessantly. She was very tired one night when the three appeared by her bed, woke her up ­ into the altered state of course ­ she was so tired she thought to herself, “Oh no, not tonight. Leave me alone.” She jumped out of bed and grabbed the neck of the entity in the middle ­ there were three of them ­ and the neck snapped, and the head fell back over the shoulders. She felt very, very bad that she had done that, but she told the other two creatures that “You’ve got to leave me alone.” So they dragged the fallen companion to a beam of light....coming through her bathroom window.

So that’s another physical struggle, and there are other examples in the book.

Editor: Then you touched upon Righteous Anger, which is number three.

AD: Yes. Morgana again, as well as others I’ve written about in the book, used the anger at being invaded ­ that their inalienable rights were being attacked by unknown creatures coming into their house and harassing them. Even Jesus Christ used Righteous Anger when he drove the money changers out of the temple. So this is not anger which is uncontrollable. It’s a controllable type of anger with your own rights behind it, and she used that in combination with other techniques because she felt that she had to protect her husband and her small son.

Editor: Right. And then there’s Protective Rage: Guard your loved ones.

AD: Yes. That’s a combination again. They all work together and there are elements mixed together.

Editor: Yes. It’s obvious that they overlap.

AD: Protective Rage is when you’re wide awake in the daytime and you know that the creatures have been there the night before. Once you are fully awake you open all the windows and let the sunlight stream into your house and you talk to the creatures, very, very sternly, wherever they are­whether they’re in their own realm or whether they can hear you psychically. Morgana didn’t know the way it worked, but she would tell the creatures: “You let us alone. Don’t you dare come back to us.” She was protecting her family. Protective Rage and Righteous Anger have to be used with no real hatred toward the creatures. You have to accept that they are some kind of phenomenon or perhaps other creatures that are part of God’s creation, but that they have temporarily stepped out of their own realm, and that they don’t really belong in our realm.

Editor: Support From Family Members is number five.

AD: Yes. This again can be a combination. It involves mental struggle sometimes, but this was demonstrated by Emily Cronin and Jan Whitley, that I write about in the book. They had friends who lived in their house with them and the friends knew about the harassment that went on at night by the entities to Emily and Jan. But they didn’t see the creatures themselves. For example, Emily would be approached at night by these creatures. She would see them around her bed and she would be struggling to use her mental struggle to move one arm, one finger, one toe, and her roommate would wake up and see that she was struggling in distress about something and she would simply ask her, “May I help you, Emily?” and that helped Emily to break the paralysis and the creatures vanished for Emily, but her roommate never saw them. Even with the struggle that Emily was going through with them. So this is pretty firm evidence that these creatures are not perceived in full waking consciousness, or our normal space/time. They’re perceived in an altered state.

Editor: The experience is of a visionary nature, or implanted through telepathy perhaps?

AD: We don’t really know. I know that psychologists and sociologists in the field are trying to figure out what the altered state is, but it’s pretty well agreed upon by all researchers that most abductions at least do not occur in physical space/time, in a full waking consciousness.

Editor: Then number six, Intuition: Sense them coming.

AD: Yes. This goes into a metaphysical group of techniques and some people are intuitive in that they perceive that maybe that night the entities are coming, so they can prepare themselves with various metaphysical techniques. Some of them use aromatherapy, flower essences that tend to give them protection against the phenomenon, whatever it is. But it’s the intuition of the abductee themselves that the creatures are coming that night that they can better prepare themselves so that they’re not surprised when it happens.

Editor: Right, and we’ve already overlapped into number seven, The Metaphysical Methods: Create a personal shield, which I remember one of the techniques is the creation of the white light, which is really a non-denominational technique that anyone can use.

AD: It is indeed. I’m a Catholic, and I use white light sometimes to ward off anger or something like that.

Editor: All religions recognize the white light as being of the purest, highest essence.

AD: As coming from a source above us. A protective source. You could perceive it as your angel, or as a saint, or God himself, or whatever you can accept that could protect you.

Editor: Then number eight is Appeal To Spiritual Personages: Get help from on high, which again I think one overlaps another here.

AD: They all sort of blend into one another. Of course, when I was writing I had to try and separate them into various techniques, but I did find that people who knew more than one technique and who could blend them together were more capable of keeping the phenomenon away, permanently from themselves, or even in particular instances if they combined the techniques the creature went away faster.

Appeal To Spiritual Personages, which could be prayer or any kind of metaphysical technique where you appeal to whatever, and it has to be the most powerful technique that is available.

Editor: And it has to be right for that person.

AD: Exactly. You have to believe that prayer can help you in order for that to work. But you know, in Roswell now, there is a whole group of people who are talking and writing about the protection of prayer from abduction, and of course they’re only talking about the one defense mechanism, but it is interesting that they have been able to get many, many cases where prayer has helped. Of course, I think for a conglomerate population like the United States you need more than one technique to appeal to everyone who might be victimized. But I do applaud these people who are doing that in Roswell. They have their own conference now. Starting two years ago. They have an annual conference together with the Roswell festival, but separate from it.

Editor: And they have kind of like a support group there I guess?

AD: Yes. A powerful support group. There’s a website, if any people are interested, at: www.ancientofdays.net A man by the name of Guy Malone is in charge of this. It’s Christian based.

Editor: Then number nine is Repellents: Use time-tested fend-off substances, and you mentioned prominently in this chapter I think a Deborah Goodale Marchand.

AD: Yes. Deborah has long used flower essences to help abductees fend off abduction scenarios, and each flower essence ­ if you read books about flower essences ­ they’re supposed to work on a different part of the human personality, and so she will chose the different flower essences which would help particular abductees fend off this phenomenon. I’ve tried to get her to write more about it, and I have written a little bit about it in an article or two.

Editor: She was an abductee herself?

AD: Oh yes.

Editor: I remember you met her out at the conference out in Wyoming that Dr. Sprinkle sponsors.

AD: Yes. She and her husband are delightful people, and their daughter. They’re caught in the middle of this phenomenon. Deborah seems to be fighting it almost continually with various techniques. She has not been able to free herself entirely. But she keeps trying, and helping other people.

Editor: That’s commendable.

AD: Most of the abductees, that I have in my database, which is about 90 persons now, or slightly over now - a great proportion of them have gotten the phenomenon to go away permanently. But some of them are still besieged at times, but not as often as they used to be because the techniques work for them in that way and then, of course, there are abductees who have tried techniques and have failed ­ they work at first, but then they fail because the creatures will either shift into a new form and surprise them ­ into a more pleasant form ­ and so it’s an ongoing process for abductees like that.

Editor: That’s interesting. Of course, you’re to be commended for writing a book not just about the experiences but how to actually try and be proactive about this and turn this experience ­ the negative part of it around for these people.

AD: Well thank you for the compliment. I appreciate that. There are some researchers in the field who feel that abductees can help themselves by coming to terms with the fact that they are being abducted and just accept it. But this is not what my book is about. This is getting rid of the harassment altogether.

Editor: Right. For these people it’s not a pleasant experience. It’s not something they invited. It’s not something they want.

AD: That’s right.

Editor: There are those who do, but in these particular instances they don’t.

AD: Well, there are people ­ even some of my friends ­ who the abduction scenarios are not unpleasant for them. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s a different kind of phenomenon.

Editor: There is one who told me how upsetting the experiences were for him initially...He felt like he was about to lose his mind. ...And now, even though he realizes they’re intrusive and been unpleasant, he doesn’t want them to stop. He feels he’s got a connection with something that could have answers that are important, so he wants it to go on.

AD: Yes. There are a group of abductees like that. These creatures have been described, as they’re described in various cultures down through the millennia, they are invariably described as capable of deception. Some of them are good, some of them are bad, like the Jinn, but they are all capable of deception, and I think that a lot of these abductees are being led to believe, by the entities themselves, that the visits are worthwhile because they’re going to learn something, but I don’t think myself - I’m just speculating - that they’re going to learn. The abductions are continuing because the entities, whatever they are, get some kind of pleasure or whatever from them and that they have deceived the abductees into thinking that they’re going to learn something. But I don’t think they are.

But that’s only my opinion. I have nothing to back that up. Nothing scientific.

Editor: Well it does seem like all the information, if we give credence to the abductees who claim that they have an idea given them for some invention for propulsion or something else, and experts look at it ­ this person brings to them this information ­ and say, “ This won’t work.”

AD: Or mathematical formulas they’re given. Present it to a scientist and they say it doesn’t make sense. I feel a great deal of this is deception by the phenomenon itself.

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