An Interview with Jon Thunder

by Brent Raynes

It was nearly 10 a.m., Friday, March 7th. We sat down at the table in the small restaurant at the Deerfield Flea Market, just off highway 64 and a few miles outside of Lawrenceburg, Tennessee. When my wife and I arrived, Jon was conversing with several local men. Ordinary talk about automobiles and such. He was obviously no stranger to these people. The restaurant manager teased Jon with comments related to his being Indian, for example, and Jon would retort back with his own fine tuned and good natured humor like how the food and the prices in the place were good, but they sure needed to turn the heat up because it was a little cool. Joan and I quickly ordered breakfast, and as we made small talk and discussed the upcoming interview we soon discovered Jon was right, the food and prices were very good, and later when another customer complained (all humor aside), the manager then set out to look into turning up the heat.

Jon Thunder is a people person, a man of good humor and good character, but with the reputation for telling it like it is and just like he sees it. In addition, Jon is an artist, a husband, a father, and a full-blooded Apache Indian. For over three hours, Jon openly shared with us (and eavesdropping patrons) his deepest thoughts and opinions about American Indian life, then and now, and what it means to be Indian and ultimately what it means to be a good human being irregardless of your race or nationality.

Full-blooded Apache Indians are a rare sight in this part, or any part of Tennessee really. But it was obvious to us that Jon had come to be accepted as a neighbor and friend by many of the local people. This is certainly a testament to the kind of philosophy that Jon shared with us, meaning he walks his talk, and, as we have found, he openly shares his philosophies and opinions with anyone who will listen.

In this exclusive interview, Jon Thunder shares with our readers a special and unique offer. As he has traveled and lived among many American Indians across the nation, and done extensive study on this broad subject, you might wish to take advantage of this next offer. In the interview, Jon explains that if anyone would like him to personally probe, research or answer a specific question or subject for them, then he’ll be glad to do so. He does make the reasonable request of $10. to help compensate him for his time and trouble, and another $1.50 for the cost of postage and a cassette tape. He promises to put his reply on the cassette. Jon Thunder can be reached by emailing him at: jthunder@artofthunder.com. Also visit his website: www.artofthunder.com.

In case you weren’t in the Deerfield Flea Market that day, here is part one (1) of this interview:

Editor: Though you have much to say on American Indian culture and you have the heritage and it’s a significant part of your artwork, you nonetheless prefer to distinguish yourself from the almost archetypal Indian artist label that many seem inclined to thrust upon you. Could you explain the direction that you wish to make, and why it is important to you that it be made?

Jon Thunder: One of the main reasons that I stay away from the term Indian artist or Indian anything is because of the reputation that follows that term, in these modern days. There are so many people out there who are embracing the Indian culture without the exact representation. So if I wish to embrace the term Indian artist then I believe that what actually I’m telling the people who are in contact with me for the first time is that my art, me as a person, everything that I do, is of an Indian nature. Now my Indian-ism is not for sale. It is a way of my life. It is the way of my people. What I do with it, as far as the artistic ability that I have, is a personal choice that I have made. I paint what I know. I know the people of my culture. I know our history. So it’s very easy for me to paint this. But also I’m a commissioned painter. I will paint Davy Crockett. I will paint the subjects that I feel I have to paint through my life experiences.

The Indian artist in me covers only the Indian subjects. The artist in me covers art, and I am an artist. To view me as an Indian artist would be like if I were to look at you and my approach to you was that you were not a journalist but a white journalist, but I’m sure you’re interested in all topics other than just what Anglos want to read.

Once we embrace a label we must follow that label. If you go back to the ways of my ancestors, we did not call ourselves Indians. This is a term - a label that was laid upon us. We called ourselves, regardless of what the nations, the tribes were calling themselves - once it is translated, it translates into the common man. People. Human beings.

I am a human being. Period.

Editor: You have stated that part of your mission in life is to educate people about Native American life and to dispel the Hollywood myths and misconceptions about such matters. What misconceptions are you most annoyed or concerned about, and how do you feel qualified to be the one aggressively addressing them?

Jon Thunder: What makes me qualified? Well, the fact that I was born into it, I live it, I have made enemies for my ideologies, my beliefs. I speak my language. When you walked in, the first time you laid eyes on me, did you know I was an Indian by the way I was dressed, by the beads and long hair?

It’s the whole aura about me. I am Indian. So my qualifications, for me personally, is that I have not learned this from books, from watching a movie, and I’m not doing outside research. My core is my existence. Now because of my upbringing does that make me the authoritarian voice and my way the correct way. Of course not. Whenever somebody tells you they have the answer that is the moment you can start asking them questions.

What I’m supposed to do in life is to make someone question the path. I have worked hard on my personality to come across certain people as arrogant, a know-it-all, a final word on our people, because I have found that my personality - when people meet me they either like me or they dislike me - and if someone out there disagrees with me in such a way that they will actually research the subject themselves, they will see where I’m coming from. Now is there a better way to present this, a more diplomatic way? Of course there is.

I have been given the art - the talent to communicate with the white man. A lot of our people cannot have a culture/social cross-over. It’s a talent that has been given to me through education. What I have to learn is how to get that message across and get the sound of hostility out of my voice.

Now why is that hostility in there. Well, so many people that read about us say that Indians were done wrong. This happened and that happened. But truly I tell you that no one has ever taken anything from me because I was Indian. We live in modern days now. We have civil rights laws.

At the end my life time, what is the body of my life going to be. To me it has to be a grouping of my relations with other people, my body of works, what I stood for.

I am carrying on the works of the great Winnebago spiritual man, Ruben Snake. Now Ruben Snake died a few years ago. He was a member of the first Indian Congress. He was a man, along with several others, who made a lifetime to preserve our ways. We partitioned the United States government to tell them we have the right to keep our worship and our spirituality intact. So many of our people in our history gave their lives, gave their comfort zones up for the preservation of our ways.

Editor: Now when was it that this happened?

JT: We’re looking back at the late 1950s and the early ‘60s. He was a representative of the Native American Church. So the misconceptions today are that if you have Indian blood in you that automatically opens you up to a tranquil serene life.

If you’re familiar with our history, we’re just like every other human race. Some of us are spiritual, some of us are not. Some of us are upstanding and some of us are thieves. A grouping does not guarantee principles and morals. That’s something you have to go for yourself.

So I’m trying to carry on the work of Ruben Snake - I’m trying to carry on the work of our ancestors. The voices of my ancestors have to be heard. The voices of my ancestors are not popular. When the Anglos first came over and heard the words my ancestors were saying they were put to death. When the Anglos first saw the worships of our ancestors they were called devil worshipers and heathens and they were put to death. Our ways were so different that they create distrust and fear among other people.

For a person to know where they’re going they must know where they come from. Our spirituality has to be kept intact. Our spirituality is not made to sell trinkets or to get into clubs or get people to look at us favorably. Our spirituality is not a spirituality of popularity. So when I see people worshiping our way but cannot say the names that must be said, then it’s not traditional. If you love our ways then know our ways.

Why must I do this? Because it’s in my heart. A man must follow his heart. There is no greater evil then the ignorance in your heart. Ignorance creates fear. Ignorance creates chaos.

In this area I have met local groups that are trying to get Indian recognition. This is Cherokee land here. The Cherokee have a proud history. I go to some of the Pow Wows here hoping to learn about Cherokees. I have been here over a year and I have yet to meet a traditional Cherokee. I have met lots of people with Cherokee bloodlines - I’ve been introduced to several groups who say they’re Cherokee and proud of the Cherokee way - but all I see is Lakota. I hear Indian names, I see beads, I see feathers. When I go to the Pow Wows I see the Lakota dances. Everything is Lakota because Dances With Wolves brought the attention back to the Indian. No where have I seen the traditional Cherokee dancer. No where have I heard the traditional Cherokee stories.

I was talking to one of the representatives of one of the local groups and I was telling him that their way of worship was a slur to our people and he told me they were Cherokee, I was Apache, what did I know. Well, I was not discussing with this man a culture, how the Cherokee worked in a social circle, how their government worked. That is something I’m studying right now. What I do know, without argument, is the spiritual worship of my people. It’s a coincidence maybe that the modern way of worship that is being credited to us Indians is kind of the way I worship. When I say kind of, it’s the sweats, the fasting, all of that is correct. But that is where everything jumps ship.

But the misconceptions that I’m fighting against are that we’re not Dances With Wolves, we’re not Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show, we’re people who are very spiritual - those of us who are. We have our rules. The same difference to me would be if a Christian came onto the reservation to indoctrinate us of Christian ways and they were getting what they thought was a convenient way of worship and they started introducing themselves as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and they wore robes, and they said to be a Christian this is what you have to do. We would say no in today’s time. If I’ve read the Bible correctly it is to worship the way Christ said to worship, but everything else you’re in the modern world.

We’re the same way. This is the way our ancestors said to worship. That is the way we worship and we follow that. There is a time and place for everything. I’m so proud of my people and so proud of our way of life that I will stand up to anyone who is making a mockery of that for their own personal recognition.

Editor: Civil rights and recognition for American Indians came kind of late. Wasn’t it in 1978 that it actually became , by the U.S. government, constitutionally legal then for the American Indians to practice the sweat lodge ceremony, and a lot of their ceremonies?

JT: Yes, yes.

Editor: After the late 1800s, it was banned because of Custer and the fears that the Ghost Dance was going to generate a retaliation from the Indian nations.

JT: Yes, so what I’m saying is that our way of worship was so different that it caused fear among the people in control. So what is there about the worship of today’s new groups that would cause that kind of reaction? Nothing. It’s popular. Where would the government see a threat for people sitting around with beads and feathers, smoking a pipe and sprinkling tobacco and sweating. There’s no threat in that. The threat is in the ideology. The threat is when you believe it in your heart and you are ready to act on it.

How many people who show up at a Pow Wow are willing to give up their home, their car, their job, their family for that little honor dance that they’re doing? Hell, you can’t even get them out there when the temperature is a 100 degrees. It’s too hot to dance.

The greatest enemy to us Indians today are the wannabees. When I use the word wannabees I’m not talking about someone who can prove or disprove Indian ancestry through a card. If a person has any knowledge in history and how those cards and the rolls and all of that came about, then they know that not everybody with an Indian card is an Indian and not everybody without one isn’t one. I’m not the person to tell someone they’re not Indian. I am the person to tell someone that what they’re doing is not Indian.

I’m from the reservation. I’m a product of the boarding schools. I came out here and I listened to one of the female leaders of one of the local groups. She put out a newsletter that said how dare Jon Thunder question her Indian-isms because she had walked the Red Man’s road. I talked to the people in the area. She grew up in this area, she went to public schools. How can you walk in a Red Man’s world if you have never been taken out of your family’s house when you were six years old and put in non-Indian foster homes because they wanted to de-Indian-ize you. How can you live on the Red Man’s road when you don’t have a say in what school you go to.

I’m from Arizona. My primary school experiences were in the Indian schools of Haskell in Lawrence, Kansas. Montana. My home is in Arizona. So being Indian today is not a club. It is a way of life. No one who comes to the reservations, that approaches us with these Indian names, is looked upon as serious, because we know that they’ve done no investigation into our ways.

You go on a reservation and people are proud of their names. They will tell you what their names are. Yazee, Thunder, Ortega, Johnson, Marshall. Look at the history of the Cherokee people at their leaders, Sequoyah, Ross - wasn’t Ross considered a chief? Where were the Indian names? Now when you go to the Northern Plains this is there because these were translations of these people’s names. For example, Ruben Snake. It’s a family name, not his Indian name. His last name was Snake. Winnebago. Lived his whole life to the preservation of our language and our traditional worship. I meet this other gentleman who calls himself Snake - a nickname - an Indian name. If this person were to go on an Indian reservation or among traditional Indians and refer to himself as Snake, until he was spoken to he would have respect just because we know the price the snake clan has paid for the preservation of our traditions. But once we find out that this is a nickname that’s where the problems begin.

For blacks, for example, they were covered by the government in the civil rights movement. We think it’s very politically incorrect for the black faced comedians - they painted their faces black, their lips white - we did away with that. If we hear someone refer to a culture in a stereotype way we do away with that. But with us Indians - people who say they embrace us - are the people who are making fun of us.

In this area, Indians are not taken serious. I have been approached by several people who wanted to know about my visions. What’s my Indian name? Rain dances.

Our visions are very discreet. Our visions - our greater power - God - whatever word you want to use. When we had visions, if God is going to speak to us on a personal level, we have to be righteous. To me, it’s the same thing if every Christian I met said Jesus Christ personally appeared to them and told them to be baptized. The spirit cannot appear to all of us. Why is the language important in this? Well, I feel that if a person takes the time to learn our language and know the words of our ancestors then people like me wouldn’t be needed. There wouldn’t be any misconception of the translations of our ways.

The Peyote Society is in existence today, the Sun Dance, the Ghost Dance - there’s still remnants of that - the Pipe Society has a big movement here - we have gatherings. Where are these honorable people?

I do not recognize any group government. I recognize tribal government. I recognize the ways of my people. If someone comes up to me and says, “I have Indian ancestry and I love the atmosphere of Indian-ism, so I wear the feather and I wear the beads and I dance at a Pow Wow, and this is who I am today, and this is how I express I am today”- I have no problem with that. No problem whatsoever. Freedom is the greatest gift you can give anybody. But once these people do this and say, “This is the way it is done, this is the way of our ancestors”- that’s when I have a problem with it because there are so many of us who are making personal sacrifices for the continuation of our ways. The government does not pat us on the back. So for many of us in our history and today, to pay the price to keep our tradition alive we want other people to pay the price too.

By that I’m not saying you must place yourself in harms way or have things taken away from you. I’m just saying that if the only time you’re seen as an Indian is at a Pow Wow or when people are looking at you - but once the crowds go away you become John Doe and there’s nothing about your way of life that says you’re an Indian - what is it about your life that makes you an Indian? Do I live in a tee pee? No. What makes me an Indian is whenever somebody is around me and they leave and they see me again and again, and they have interaction with me, they know my ways are different. They know by experience - just in this small area of Deerfield, and a prime example is that man standing behind the bar there. Whenever I have something on my mind concerning him he hears it first.

The group that is around here - many rumors are coming back to me of words that are being said about me. I hooked up to get their newsletter - I wanted to see what the Indians around here were up to - so they came out and they met me when I first came into town. ‘Oh, Jon Thunder. Oh yes, let’s meet him,’ and their higher power had guided them to me, and so when I told them ‘This is wrong,’ ‘This is wrong,’ ‘This is wrong’ - the reason that I felt I had the right to say ‘This is wrong’ is when they approached me they said their whole reason for their existence as a group was to preserve the ways of the Indian people and our spirituality. Well, all I saw there was preserving Dances With Wolves and the Buffalo Bill Wild West Show - there was no preservation of our ways.

Our Indian history, our spirituality is not hidden anymore. It used to be where our ways weren’t told to anybody, but they’ve become so commercialized that a lot of us feel that we have to say, “This is the way it happened.” Not one of these people that said I’ve offended them by saying they had done wrong had done their research because if they had, I know then they would have seen the Indian way. They would have called me or come by and said, “We see where you’re getting your information. We have read it also. We disagree with the way you present with hostility in your voice.” But the words I say are true. The way I present them is my personality.

If they knew Indian ways they would have called council and everyone that wanted to know this would have been invited. Not any charge. They would have said, “Okay Jon Thunder you have our ears,” and they would have picked their knowledgeable person - their historian - or their spiritual leader to face me, in front of the group, and ask me my questions and have the knowledge to know if I’m spreading truths or untruths. No one has done that.

I was getting a newsletter until I started voicing my opinions and as soon as I started voicing my opinions guess what, the newsletters stopped. So that tells me I have to agree with them.

You know the term Indian giver?

Editor: Yes, it’s a common expression.

JT: Well, it is part of our nature. When we give someone something we give it in the spirit it was given. If we see that it is not being used that way we take it back. It’s not a way that is privy to the Apache. It’s something that was done among all Indian tribes, and the Anglos and the non-Indians couldn’t understand. “He gave me that and now he’s taking it back?” Indian giver. Well, I presented this group, when I first met them, for their museum a hand-made pipe, hatchets, tomahawks, trinkets - hand-made and very nice. We were on speaking terms at that time and they accepted it and I was getting their newsletter. They even sent me cards to join their organization. They were blank. Fill in the names - fill in the names of your children. They didn’t even want to see who my children were, what their personalities or their reputations were - sign ‘em up, they’re good enough for us. But as soon as my opinions were voiced no newsletter, no invitation to their councils, but did they send me my gifts back - no! That still hangs on their wall! So either you take me, or you leave me alone. You cannot accept my gifts if they were given in the spirit of brotherhood then kick me out and say, “We’re gonna keep his stuff.” That is not Indian.

I hang out here at the Deerfield Flea Market. I make myself accessible. I do not say this and then run to my house. I show up at Pow Wows ready to talk and to debate anyone of history. I am confident in our knowledge of my people’s history. No one debates me, but I hear people coming up saying, “This is what I heard.” The one thing I hear a lot is, “I thought you Indians didn’t gossip or spread rumors?” I go, “That’s not an Indian thing. That’s a person thing. You can be Indian and do it, or be Irish and do it.” So many rumors are flying around here about me, but no one has approached me.

I was going to some Pow Wows with a lady and she kept telling me, “Jon, with your ideologies you stand up here in front of Pow Wows and tell people this, I’m surprised you haven’t got - and I’m quoting - “surprised you haven’t gotten your ass kicked before you get to the car in the parking lot.” Well, I don’t say anything, I just grin, but in my mind this is what I’m saying: “The non-Indians, when they came over and saw our ways, instead of having debates they kicked our ass.” So when I hear that I may get my butt kicked because of a difference of opinion, but I go, “How non-Indian.” My point has been made.

Several groups out there have their council. Why is their council made up of only people who agree with them? When I go into an area, all of these groups they run to my doorstep, invite me to join this, go to this Pow Wow with us, but once I say this is not our ways - I’m more than happy to spill my guts on our ways - I’m not invited anymore. Not to their council. They want to gather with people they agree with, and the only way that you learn is to be exposed to new ideas, and if I was out professing a new philosophy - the philosophy of Jon Thunder, then I’m in the marketing business. But everything I say about our ancestors and our spirituality and our traditions is written down, and I’ve yet to have someone call me and say, “Jon, thank you for telling us that what we’re doing we’re doing out of ignorance but once you opened your mouth we wanted to research to shut you up we found truth in your words - we do not like your presentation, but there’s truth in your words. Thank you for giving us knowledge, and now we’re going to expand on that our way.” That would please me. But whenever I’m told that they’re doing this because that’s what they need, that’s how they can get by today, then that is not tradition. Tradition means you leave it alone. How can you add to tradition?

You don’t. You create something new.

Editor: We do live in a modern world.

JT: Yes, this is a modern society and we must do things in different ways. But Pow Wows are not our churches. I’ve gone to several Pow Wows. But I usually stay away from them, and people say, “Well Jon, if you’re so involved in the Indian culture and Indian spirituality, why don’t you go to Pow Wows?” Well, it’s because I have so much pride in my people that as soon as I hear someone say this is sacred, this is our church, this is our worship, this is honor, I have to go and find the MC and say I’d like five minutes on the mike. I’ve got to.

If I went into a church and I had to pay five dollars to get in the door and then once I got in there were people selling Jesus pictures and Jesus necklaces, and if I was hungry there was somebody who would sell me a Jesus burger - is that spiritual and sacred? It’s a business. There’s no spirituality there. There’s a core of spirituality, but the spirituality is out the window because a true spiritual person - if I were to hear the word - I could go through that door free of charge. If I’m hungry someone is going to say, “Here. Eat this.” That’s true spirituality. It comes in all denominations and in all people.

So the Pow Wows today are carnivals. We don’t need another dancer. We don’t need another story teller. We don’t need another medicine man. What we need is someone to say, “I’m going to take the time to learn the language, and I will teach it to my child,” or “I will teach it to my neighbor.” Or we’re going to have a meeting together and each one of us is going to learn a sentence in our language, and we’re going to bring back the sounds of our ancestors.

The sacred circle my friend is broken. The sacred circle of indigenous people is broken and until we hear the words and cries of our ancestors that circle will remain broken. Our God is only as strong as we make Him, and if we do not sing the songs of our ancestors in our tongue - the songs are dying - the Indian people are dying. Hollywood’s Kevin Costner is a part of our culture now. The ways of Chief Joseph, Sequoyah, Cochise, Crazy Horse, those ways are dead, even though they say they live today their people have killed their ways because their ways were proud, and you cannot be a proud person if you let someone else handle your information

Now you have to understand how Pow Wows started. When people tell me I have no idea I laugh because I know they have no idea. The Pow Wows started in the Southwest. It’s our game that we introduced to the other Indians, and how the Pow Wow started is that when the government said we couldn’t interact because we might be up to no good they allowed us to get together at certain times of the year - and yes we danced. It was a big social.

And it’s at every gathering, even today, you look at the sports shows - during a football game - you’ll have a couple of the players who will gather at the end zone and pray. It’s the Christian players. Not every player is going there and worshiping. Not every player is spiritual. Our Pow Wows were the same way. It was a grouping of people. The spiritual people would get together and worship and sing praises while the other ones were drinking, dancing, eating, socializing.

Today we have the commercialism of our spirituality. What really gets me is the people who will say they’re a man of honor and when you look at their personal life there’s no honor. Our leaders have said that our people who are destined to be leaders know it from the early time of years, and once they realize they are to be leaders - and by leaders I mean a voice that is saying and bringing forth new ways to our people - you have to start working toward that goal. This comes to you at an early age. In the old days, our leaders, our chiefs were people of higher clans and they got their positions through experience, education and knowledge of the history of our people.

If someone wants to form an Indian group or do Indian things in a modern way, more power to them. We need all the positive PR we can get. But there are so many people I have met that are so interested in our ways and believe that they’re following our ways because of the information that they’ve been given - when it is not.

Our ways are more detailed than trinkets and dances. In my travels, I meet a lot of different cultures. If someone was to ask me, “Jon, define the United States of America, it’s people. Define Americans.” And I said, “Fourth of July and Christmas,” and everybody who wanted to learn about Americans were only exposed to the 4th of July and Christmas - that is a true representation of a culture, but that is not the only representation of that culture. There are so many things left out that you cannot correctly connect the dots. So when the only thing people are seeing of us is Pow Wows and trinkets it’s the same way.

Every dancer that I’ve met, when I ask them, “Why do you dance?” they go, “We’re trying to preserve our ways, our people.” The Lakota Sioux should rest at night real peacefully knowing that their ways will never die because every Indian I meet has the Lakota ways about them. The Cherokee are in danger of becoming extinct. Their language is dying, their dances are dying. Everything is dying. The Apache. The Hopi. The Cheyenne. Everybody.

We have to keep it alive. So I’m the type of person who is engulfed in tradition. My art springs from my spirituality. Now am I a spiritual Indian? I’m a spiritual person. Now does that mean I’m a man of honor? Ask my neighbors. Am I a trustworthy man? Ask the people who have had business dealings with me. Am I a good husband? Ask my wife. Am I a good father? Ask my children.

So what makes me spiritual is that I worship. So to Indians spirituality and physical - two different things. We’re not perfect people. I have the words of my ancestors, I know the stories, I know the songs. I’m trying to keep it alive. I wish that all I felt in my responsibility to my people was to create a trinket or go out and dance. I wish that was all there was to it. But how can you be a leader of your people?

I set myself up to be knocked down because I have a course in life and I have to have others make sure I maintain this course. If I tell a young Indian boy I have the answer to your lot in life - how can I tell him I have the answer to make his life better if my life is mired.

These Indian people in these Indian clubs - the majority of their membership is unemployed and living at sub-poverty levels. Their great chiefs are unemployed and living at poverty levels. Their spiritual leaders can’t even speak our language. So if I’m going to tell someone I am the example, I am a leader - I can tell the Indians this because look at my color, it’s no secret when I walk in through a door I’m a minority - but I’m a successful minority. So I can tell my people how to rise above poverty. When I tell my people that education is the key I have education. When I tell my people how to make their lot in life better, shouldn’t I be an example of that? So when you have a man of honor - who is professing honorship among a membership - but they have not done anything by example - well you lead by example. I want to meet an Indian leader, of one of these local Indian organizations, who are an example to their people. I have accumulated a prosperous life by the energies and knowledge my ancestors gave me. I am from a warrior society. I am Apache.

Today’s war is the war against ignorance and poverty. To be a true warrior you have to guard against this. In the old days, a warrior made sure his family was taken care of. You cannot be a warrior today if you’re engulfed in personal poverty. This is America. No one has to stay in poverty.

Now what is the scope of success? Some people say that Indians never chased after materialistic wealth. They don’t know us because aren’t there stories about raiding parties to capture horses. Isn’t that a possession? When you went on the buffalo hunt you wanted to make sure you had plenty of meat stored up. That’s possession. That’s setting yourself up for a nice life. So I don’t buy that interpretation.

When other tribes fought over hunting areas - isn’t that a possession? This is my land. We’ve always been into possessions. So when I hear an excuse from another person who says he’s Indian and the reason he’s not trying to get ahead in life is because Indians do not believe in personal possessions, I laugh at him because I know that is not true.

I hear the term Indian time. That is one of the biggest slurs to my people. You’ll never hear an Indian say, “Indian time.” This is what Indian time is. When a group came over that was dictated by a physical clock, they saw a people that didn’t have a clock. Our clock was the sun. Now what would have happened to a people if someone had run up to them and said, “Look, look, look! The buffalo are over there! Let’s go hunt the buffalo! We’ve been waiting on them!” and we had said, “Ahh. Well, in a minute. I’m living on Indian time.”

When we would say things like “Everything gets done in its time,” which ever time, a convenient time. There’s a time and a place for everything, and when the time hits you had better be on out. That was Indian time. Not an excuse for laziness, for procrastination, lack of motivation.

I’m a full blood. My business demands that I’m on time.

Editor: You beat us here today. I guess we’re on white people time.

JT: Then I hear the term Indian car. Well, back home we kind of use those as badges of honor because there is no industry and there are no jobs back on the Indian lands, and so for those of us who for whatever reasons feel that we shouldn’t leave the reservations and that we need to stick as close to our people and the ways of our people as we can, our monies - because of the unemployment rate out on the Indian lands of the Southwest are so scarce that when you have money you use it for other things, and yes, your car may look like a jalopy but no one in the desert or the remote areas does not have a car they cannot depend on. Because back in the old days a lack of transportation will kill you in a remote area. So the cars may look like heck but they do run, and the level of the old cars and jalopies - etc., etc. - look at the job markets there. There’s no job markets. So we have chosen that for ourselves.

Now when I come into the non-Indian lands where there are plenty of jobs from flipping a burger to digging a ditch to temporary services - now when someone says someone is driving a jalopy because it’s their Indian car then what they’re telling me is that when an Indian is given the same opportunity of employment as a counterpart, that because he’s Indian he has to drive a jalopy. No, that is a personal choice. It’s not an Indian car.

Editor: You were born in Oklahoma.

JT: Yes, Fort Sill.

Editor: But you were really raised in Arizona?

JT: The Southwest. The deserts.

Editor: That’s where you really strongly identify with?

JT: Thunder is my clan. It is not my Indian name or vision. My parents, my grandparents and my grandparents before them. Now Thunder is the English translation of my family clan name. We’ve always been warriors. My ancestry goes back to the spiritual leaders of tribes. So basically I am following family traditions.

Editor: Right. That’s your roots.

JT: My roots. I am Apache. Now the reason I was able to be born in Fort Sill, Oklahoma, is that is where Geronimo was held and that is where his grave is today. So among Apaches, for the government to allow for a non-military person to be born at an army hospital, that’s already saying something. But because of the family name, the Thunders, I was allowed as Apache, Chiricahua Apache, to be born in the area where Geronimo died. So there is, even at an early birth, my whole presentation in this life was groomed at an early age. We believe that out of giving taking. One of our great leaders crossed to the other side there. We bring forth people from there. So the very fact that I was born in Fort Sill says that I am being groomed for a walk. Everybody that knows me, from the rez, knows that from an early stage I was being groomed to be a Roadman.

Editor: What does it mean to be a Roadman?

JT: A Roadman is a term that has been associated with the Native American Church. When you said Roadman it was connected with the Native American Church and that was my form of worship. For years and years. We still call it New Age, but it has been around for about 300 years. It was the peyote way of worship. Worshiped that way for many years. My mind is open to growth. That is the only way that our people are going to survive, in growing but in keeping tradition and knowing how to combine Indian truth with tradition but being able to walk in an Anglo world.

Now I was speaking to someone one time, and it was at a gathering of nations where the people who are being groomed to carry out the words of our ancestors meet, and it is not publicized - you cannot buy a ticket to it. This is something we have to have a form of control over. You have to keep the traditions pure, so we meet in secret still to this day to discuss what’s going on out there, among us. Someone was telling me, and this happened about 18 years ago, “So Jon, you’re from peyote area. The peyote sect.” Of course, I am. It is the way of worship for my people. And they said, “You know so an so down on the corner - the butcher boy?” I said, “Sure I know him.” They asked me, “Is he spiritual?” I go, “No, no. We all know him. He’s not spiritual.” They said, “Well, if he ate peyote would he have a vision?” I go, “Oh no, no, not a vision.” He said, “Well, would he have a trip? Would he see something?” “Well, of course. Peyote in this area is pretty stout.” So then this gentleman said, “Jon, don’t you think that if God really wanted to talk to you he wouldn’t need an outside substance? He wouldn’t need peyote? He would come talk to you, of your own juices?” I agreed with that, so I changed my way of worship. Well, what kind of a ripple did that cause back home? That would be like a Jew all of a sudden saying , “Hey, I think I’m going to turn into a Wiccan.”

Now there’s nothing wrong with the Wiccan faith, but if you tried to get that Wiccan faith and say it’s Jewish now you’ve got a problem. So when I crossed over and started worshiping the ways of the Pipe Society that is different. I am not saying that peyote way is wrong - I’m not saying that - there are hundreds of people who worship that way today and it is a way of worship of our people. I am not to say how someone will worship or should worship. For me, Jon Thunder, the fact that I agreed with that gentleman’s statement, that my visions must come from my own juices, created the seed that I must follow. So now I worship a different way. I worship the ways that were very prominent in the Lakota ways. So I’m crossed over in my religious ways, but I’m worshiping in an old time and honored way. I am worshiping where the expressions the pipe, the white buffalo, the Indian names, the visions - that’s the way I worship. So if I worship that way, then I know how these things come about, and I know that what’s being presented today is no way close.

This is how you get a vision. Now if some traditionalists read this I’m not going to be invited in certain circles, but it is because of our secrecy that all this ignorance is being spread.

This is how you get a vision. Number one is you fast. If I knew that you were coming over and I was going to speak to you, I shaved - oh, Indians are not supposed to shave, did you know that?

Editor: Nope. I didn’t realize that. Thanks for educating me!

JT: Well that’s what I’ve been told. Some of us do, some of us don’t. I’ve been told Indians don’t lose their hair. Go on the reservation. There’s a lot of us. We’re people.

But anyway, I knew you were coming over, I bathed, I brushed my teeth, used deodorant, smelling good and trying to look good, and you’re a mortal man - a mortal man. So if I do all this to talk to you, how about when I speak to God. Well, maybe I shouldn’t have undigested food in my system, and that’s why we fast. I do not want to approach the Great Creator with undigested food in my system. I sweat to get out the impurities of my cologne, my deodorant, the carbon monoxide that my car throws out, and all the pollutions - I cleanse myself. Well, when you go through four days of fasting and sweating your body starts breaking down and it crawls within itself for strength. That’s where your visions come from. Now what kind of vision is it? Well, use a little common sense. Our people were great on common sense. It’s whatever subject is really dwelling on your mind at the time, and the clarity of it all is there. So just like other people who fast or deprive their body for whatever reason, there comes a point of euphoria. You start saying, “I don’t need to eat. Life is so clear.” That’s very dangerous, so you must have another person there so that at the end of your days of vision quest holds you down and says, “Drink this,” even if they’ve got to pour it down your mouth. Put a dry biscuit in your mouth. “Chew this,” and you don’t want it, because you’re not hungry. You’re at a state of euphoria, of power, and it will intoxicate you, but once you start getting these morsels back into your mouth, all of a sudden your physical body starts taking back over and you find you’re ravished and you just eat, eat, and drink, and that’s why nobody loses weight fasting. You look at me you go, “Oh, you don’t fast very often.” Well, you know, I eat like a mad man after I fast.

Now what kind of visions do I have? Well, we don’t like to use the word vision because it was a word that was applied to us long ago and now it’s come to mean so many things. The last, quote and unquote vision that I had I got an idea for a new painting that I sold. Now did that come from God? Well, did the idea for the painting come from God. No, I think God is more involved in things than Jon Thunder’s art. But the fact that I thought of this painting, painted it and was able to sell it, and kept my family unit going, it was a gift of God. Now has God spoken to me personally. No.

Editor: But really, from a Native American perspective, everything has a little speck of the Creator, even the rocks.

JT: Everything! I had the God-given talent to take what I saw, during that time of euphoria, put it on canvas, and use the skills that I was born with.

Editor: Because your vision was more purified?

JT: Survival. That’s what the Spirit gives us. Survival. The main difference of an Indian spirituality, regardless of what circle, and Christianity or all the other religions of the land - the one main difference I can really point out - and I hate to use the Christians as examples, but they’re the ones whose ways are really known in this area. The Christian’s say, “This is where you are in life today and this is the Creator, and here’s the rules on how to get to Him. It’s the Bible. You live your life by these rules and you will see the Creator.” Now our twist on that is that we say, “Here is where you are you are today in life, here is where the Creator is. Get to Him and you figure it out.”

The lessons learned during that journey are lessons that are branded upon your soul.

Editor’s Note: This completes Part One of Jon Thunder’s very unique and fascinating interview with us. In the next edition, join us with the second and concluding installment in this interview series where again Jon shares his first-hand knowledge and insight about Native American life, history, culture and spirituality. In addition, we also talk about the Native American perspective on UFOs and life from other worlds.