It was nearly 10 a.m., Friday, March 7th. We sat down at the table in the small restaurant at the Deerfield Flea Market, just off highway 64 and a few miles outside of Lawrenceburg, Tennessee. When my wife and I arrived, Jon was conversing with several local men. Ordinary talk about automobiles and such. He was obviously no stranger to these people. The restaurant manager teased Jon with comments related to his being Indian, for example, and Jon would retort back with his own fine tuned and good natured humor like how the food and the prices in the place were good, but they sure needed to turn the heat up because it was a little cool. Joan and I quickly ordered breakfast, and as we made small talk and discussed the upcoming interview we soon discovered Jon was right, the food and prices were very good, and later when another customer complained (all humor aside), the manager then set out to look into turning up the heat.

Jon Thunder is a people person, a man of good humor and good character, but with the reputation for telling it like it is and just like he sees it. In addition, Jon is an artist, a husband, a father, and a full-blooded Apache Indian. For over three hours, Jon openly shared with us (and eavesdropping patrons) his deepest thoughts and opinions about American Indian life, then and now, and what it means to be Indian and ultimately what it means to be a good human being irregardless of your race or nationality.

Full-blooded Apache Indians are a rare sight in this part, or any part of Tennessee really. But it was obvious to us that Jon had come to be accepted as a neighbor and friend by many of the local people. This is certainly a testament to the kind of philosophy that Jon shared with us, meaning he walks his talk, and, as we have found, he openly shares his philosophies and opinions with anyone who will listen.

In this exclusive interview, Jon Thunder shares with our readers a special and unique offer. As he has traveled and lived among many American Indians across the nation, and done extensive study on this broad subject, you might wish to take advantage of this next offer. In the interview, Jon explains that if anyone would like him to personally probe, research or answer a specific question or subject for them, then he’ll be glad to do so. He does make the reasonable request of $10. to help compensate him for his time and trouble, and another $1.50 for the cost of postage and a cassette tape. He promises to put his reply on the cassette. Jon Thunder can be reached by emailing him at: jthunder@artofthunder.com. Also visit his website: www.artofthunder.com.

In case you weren’t in the Deerfield Flea Market that day, here is part two (2) of this interview (go to the March issue to read the first part):

Editor: What sort of lessons of the soul are you talking about when you refer to ones journey through life?

Jon Thunder: An example would be if I told you to meet me in Page, Arizona, and I went the Interstate, I went the roadmap way. Yes, I’m going to see things along the way and I’m going to learn about things on the way to Page, Arizona, but the person who says, “Well, I know the direction that it is and I know how to get there, but I think I’ll take these back streets and I’m going to go over here and see what’s going on.” You’re still going to get to the same destination but your experiences are going to be different. You’re going to have more to work with.

So does a man have to be righteous to know what to tell someone, or if I wanted to quit cigarettes should I go talk to someone who has never smoked before or would I talk to someone who had quit smoking. So if I were to become a righteous man and if I want to have some kind of spiritual guidance put upon me I want somebody who has experienced my temptations. It is hard for me to listen to a person who does not know what I am talking about.

If you look at the history of our spiritual leaders they’re given a lot of freedom to experience life. We do not sit and wait for people to come to us. That’s where the term Roadman come from.

I’ll give you an example of what happened to me a few months ago. There was a couple that was having marriage problems. Among my people I and a few other people are recognized as people that are being groomed for this. Now when I say groomed what I mean by that is the Hopi will open their doors to me. Not their personal doors. A lot of the Hopi do not like me - for several reasons. A lot of Apaches - a lot of the Indians don’t like me - for several reasons. Some of them are very obvious and some of them you’ve just got to be around me to figure it out. But the one door that is open to me because I am Jon Thunder are the doors to their spiritual leaders. We discuss things. I am taught things.

So when we’re groomed for this it is that when I go to an Indian area - for example, the Cherokees here in Tennessee have no idea that there is a recognized Cherokee spiritual man in this area because I’ve gone to him already four times and we’ve talked Cherokee spiritualisms, but he does not have a business card, he is not at Pow Wows - it’s not for sale - you must hunt him out.

And if you’re a person who is around us and says, “Hey, I hear you’re a spiritual man. Talk to me about spirituality.” I feel personally that’s not the way to go and why there’s so many misconceptions there about us because we refuse to tell people the true ways.

When I show up they’re bound by tradition to tell me what is going on. What is Cherokee spirituality traditional? Because of my walk. So when I say groomed I mean that the doors are opened to me because of the group associations I am with. Not me personally.

So we travel. I have a home, but I stay on the road a lot, and if you look at the Christian beliefs, Jesus would have made a fantastic Indian! Moses would have made the greatest medicine man alive!

Editor: He got lost in the desert for 40 years!

JT: (Laughs) Jesus did not have a place and say, “Come to me.” He went to them. So if I want to spread the word of spirituality, of a theology, its we go to the people. My life revolves around one thing. It creates the circle. It’s because of the education I have of my people and the way that I embrace it, when I paint my Indian things they’re historically correct. I challenge anyone to tear apart my research.

Now can someone paint it better? Of course. My goal is to become the best artist in the world and realistically I know that will never happen because, oh the greatness that’s out there, but that is the goal that I have to have for myself. But I will stand up to anybody doing Indian research and say mine is there, mine is on it.

Our belief says that if you do the right thing, things will take care of themselves. I began to understand how immense a challenge it was for the indigenous people to preserve our way of life, our culture, our spirituality, so I began, at an early age to devote my existence to the continuation of our people. I have no quarrel with anyone doing what they feel is in their heart. And this is what I tell people. They must make the effort to extend themselves - to find the rhythm and heartbeat of our ancestors, and they must listen to that heartbeat if they are saying this is how it was done. That is the bottom line.

There is a term called apple, and we Indians use that term a lot, but the Indians out here have a whole different meaning for it. Our meaning is white on the inside and red on the outside. So we agree that is the common accepted (meaning) - now where do we change? It’s when I meet an Indian, regardless of whether he’s red, white, got a card or don’t have a card - that part is unimportant to me. But when I meet an Indian that is dressed like an Indian and presenting an Indian visual, but everything about him is Buffalo Bill’s Wild West Show, Dances With Wolves, then that is the white culture, and so now I’m seeing an apple. I’m seeing someone who is packaged as red but who is giving a whole different interpretation of our way. They’re not being true to the Indian way.

Editor: They have the white indoctrination.

JT: Right. So that’s how we view apples. A lot of people think that when we say apple we’re talking about a red man that has white education, can survive in the white world. Now when I go back home, the fact that I am willing to lose an art sale because I will tell something. Look what I’m doing now. If I was following the popular market I would tell everybody that my paintings come from visions. My sales would increase immensely. Because when people ask me “What kind of vision did you have to paint this” I tell them “Vision hell! The rent is due.”

Editor: Ah, but you did have one awhile back. You need to capitalize on that!

JT: Oh ya. So it’s all about calling a spade a spade. So because I go back home - because I will run afoul of popular beliefs - I’m now referred to as an apple. Now if I took this anglo education that I have and never put back to my people and forgot my roots and jumped on the Indian bandwagon then I’m an apple. The only people that I worry about, looking at me and seeing me as an Indian, are Indians. I don’t care what color that Indian comes in, but if it’s someone who has taken the time to know our history we’re not going to have a great difference of ideology. We will have personal differences on how to get that ideology out there.

So one of my main causes is to stamp out apples. I want applesauce.

Editor: Or apple cider?

JT: Apple cider (laughs).

Now why am I doing this. I am supposed to. What is my incentive? It’s pride. Pride to me is more than a T-shirt or a bumper sticker. When someone comes up to me and says “Are you Indian” I say “I’m proud to be Indian.” I’m going to show that pride. I feel that if today’s people - the ones who are saying at the top of their voices that they’re out to preserve the Indian ways if they took the time to learn our language - and the reason I’m such a stickler for the language is look how things get misrepresented in translations.

Editor: I know a lot of people feel like it would be okay to have the ceremonies and the stories in English as long as that information was translated.

JT: But that’s not traditional. It’s if you want to translate it and put a different tongue to it and different values - because translations change things - then do so - then by all means do so. Set up the Pow Wow, set up the show and do it, and I will be there and sell you my art in a heartbeat - but once you get the modernization of our ways and try to pass it off as traditional - not everybody is a traditional Indian. Not everybody is Amish. Everybody is an American here. Everybody. Now if we’re Americans does that mean that we’re going to run around with loaded rifles and do it the way our ancestors did it. If it wasn’t down back in the 17th century then we’re not going to do it today?

None of us do that. The Amish are the closest. But they still don’t do that. I see them at Wal Mart everyday. But their form of worship is still traditional. So when you have a person today who is embodied in civilization - the 21st century - and they tried to worship the ways of the people - unless they’re speaking that language and doing the traditional ways - say what it is. It is an interpretation of a new way. It is we’re changing things to meet the demands of today’s market.

Editor: What sort of things - translation - would be messed up say from Cherokee to English?

JT: The Cherokees have a ceremony where they light the fires of camp of the new corn - you’ve got to keep the camp fires going - so I was with this group and they say, “Well, since we only meet once a month that old way of keeping camp fires going and everybody taking the fire home and keeping it going for seven days and all this - the sacred fire - we can’t do that no more. Because it’s just a one time meeting.” I’m going, “Well that’s if you interpret it that way. That’s not what we meant. The fire - it’s not the physical fire - it was the fire that was created among the people and you kept it going for seven days. It’s a seven day ceremony.” They go, “Well, we’ve got jobs. It’s the weekend. I can’t be here Monday. I’ve got to go to work.” Well you’ve already lost the tradition because it was seven days that you do this.

So how did we do it back then if the buffalo were coming or the cavalry - how did we keep this thing going? So I told them, “You’ve got this fire going. Wouldn’t it be great if somebody just took an ember from the fire and took it home and created their own campfire.” It’s not the fire that’s going to make you stronger. There’s nothing spiritual about the fire. It’s fire. It’s the action where you had to go out there and make sure it was going, and then bring it back.

Editor: During the Trail of Tears they did this.

JT: Exactly. So when you look back at certain things, things always have but when you start modernizing and conveniencing that ceremony - where’s the tradition? That’s what is happening with our world today. The way that Jesus said to worship, is that the way that Christians worship today? Of course not. There’s no money in it. I don’t want to get a lot of Christians ticked off for saying it but that’s the bottom line. Jesus preached for free. He did not need a fancy building. He did not even go to college to learn this. It came from his heart.

I’ll give you an example of how our thought processes so mixed up. I was approached by an organization that wanted me to give credence and to donate some monies to their cause. I go, “Great! What’s your cause?” “We’re helping to get the monument to Crazy Horse completed.” A lot of Indian organizations are raising money for the completion of this statue. So I go back to my history, I go back to the voices of my ancestors for the guidance of tomorrow, and I read that Crazy Horse, his whole essence of living was to keep those mountains unmolested - “this is our sacred place.”

Editor: And they’re chiseling his image.

JT: And to honor him now they’re going to blow the heck out of the side of that mountain?

I’m also a member of AIM - the American Indian movement. Not this new AIM - not the one you see at Pow Wows and the only time they’re the Indian Movement is when they get to put their combat boots on and walk around with their patch on. Not that AIM. That’s a club. If these people are really a member of the American Indian Movement why when they hear that some child is not doing well in school or that some man is beating his wife and drinking up that week’s pay, where are these American Indian Movement people now? Why don’t they go to these homes and say, “Look, I belong to the American Indian Movement. I will tutor you in math. I will tutor you in history. I will tutor you so that you can move ahead in your life as an American Indian. And you, who is not spending his money as it should be, I’m going to be in your face.”

No, that’s too hard to do, but it’s easy to put on a costume and parade around. So I’m not a member of that AIM. I’m a member of the AIM where we took over the offices at Wounded Knee. I’m a member of the AIM that was arrested for my Indian participation of my people. I’m a member of that AIM.

One of several leaders of AIM - Leonard Peltier, is in prison today and read the history and you’ll know why he’s there and what they say he did, etc., etc. I’m not going to discuss that. Read about it. What I am going to discuss is today, the commercialism of being Indian. The Free Leonard Peltier Fund - I’m sure you’ve heard of it. “Let’s raise money. It’s get Leonard out of there.” But did you know that Leonard is so infamous now . He’s an artist. Did you know that his paintings are being sold before he even gets them painted? Wouldn’t you love to own a Leonard Peltier original? They’ve made movies about him. He got some royalties. He’s a published author. More than once. Leonard Peltier has a lot of money. When you speak with Leonard Peltier, and he answers mail. People in prison want mail. But when you talk to his people and you ask them what can I do to help Leonard, they don’t say send us some money. They say, “Man, Leonard is there. The courts have overruled certain evidence. But he’s there. So what you can do to support Leonard is write him, keep his ideas and what he is in prison for alive. That’s how you can support Leonard.” But no one can make money doing that. So we have these organizations. “Give us money for Leonard.” “We’re raising money for Leonard.” It doesn’t go to Leonard. That is what is wrong with the Indian culture today. It is once again other people are capitalizing on us. We want to be left alone. You have taken our beads, taken our land. Now you’ve taken our names, our spirituality and making it what you want it to be. When we say that’s not how it is, it’s “Well that’s how we handle it today.” If you want to be an Indian be an Indian and if you want to be a modern day Indian then be a modern day Indian, but leave us traditionalists alone.

People have this misconception that I am against anything different if it is not old school. If you go to a Pow Wow and as long as you say this is just an Indian festival and we’re just having fun and we like the drums - Jon Thunder will be there in a heartbeat. Jumping around among ya, doing the Moon Dance, Cabbage Patch - because it’s music and an expression of music - I will be there. But once you say, “This is spiritual” I do not dance at a church. I sit my ass down and let God talk to me, and we don’t do it as a show.

Do you know what an Indian name is supposed to be? A long time ago, there was a translation of your name and back then we didn’t have - it’s kind of like in the Southwest - with a lot of Hopi, Navajo, and Apaches - but if you look at the people out there they will have last names like Gonzales, Rodriguez, Johnson, Marshall. There was a time we were told to take names. So you took names from around you, because we had something to take. But before then when we named we could only name in our language and we named things that were around us and so when somebody said, “What does that name mean?” You’d go, “Oh, it’s a crow. It’s kind of a crow.” So now you’re Crow. That’s how that got started. Sitting Bull. We did not call him Sitting Bull and in our history that’s not Sitting Bull. I will tell you how the name Sitting Bull came into effect. In the European culture the bull is the head of the pasture. He runs the cows. Sits means leadership. So when he was first seen they go, “Oh, he’s the bull, eh? He’s the leader?” “Ya, he’s the leader.” “He’s old.” Sitting all the time. Sitting Bull! No one ever went up to him and said, “Sitting Bull dude, how’s it going?” That was not his Indian name. That was his American name.

Crazy Horse. Nobody called him Crazy Horse. So if you can’t speak our language, how can you get an Indian name?

Editor: Sounds like a name like Crazy Horse is a name you might want to punch somebody out over.

JT: Ya! Plus, for example, Man Afraid Of His Horse, a very ferocious and a very honored warrior in our history. He didn’t call himself Man Is Afraid Of His Horse, and no one else who knew him did. His enemies gave him that name. What does it mean? He was such a ferocious warrior that when men saw his horse they knew he was around. So men were even afraid of his horse.

So in modern times these names don’t work anymore.

I have an Indian name that was given almost like you said in ceremony. Yes sir. That still happens. Now is it true? Is it the truth? Now that’s where faith comes in. Like everybody else. Our spirituality is only as strong as our faith.

I will not repeat my Indian name because it is the name that the gatekeeper to the other side will address me by. It is a name for me and the spirit only. When I cross over - you’ve heard the saying that Indians do not speak of the dead - that is very true. Because when I cross over to the other side, among my people I will not be referred to as Jon Thunder anymore. I’ll be referred to by my spiritual name because now I am a spirit. That is the Indian names.

Editor: Is that with all tribes?

JT: No, no. All tribes that worship the Indian names way. Any group out there that’s old, that’s still practicing the pipe society - the Indian names - there’s very little change - but yes, there are some differences. But the nucleus is a continuity. So to me, can a Christian be an Indian. Of course. Can an Indian be a Christian. Of course. Can you be a Christian and a traditional spiritual worshiper. No. Because if you do then you’re going against the commandments of God. I am loosely quoting the Bible. “I am a jealous God,” “Have no other gods before me,” “Worship not what is in the air, on the ground or in the seas,” “Take not unto yourself a graven image.” Moses come down from the hills and they’ve got a golden calf going and all this stuff, and what does he do? He gave us the Lord’s Prayer and a set of rules of what to do. If you’re a traditional Indian of today you have to have symbolisms of your faith. The eagle is not going to help us. The eagle is a bird. It’s what it stands for symbolically among our beliefs. The Christians have the dove. Jesus was the Lamb of God. We have these symbolisms but we use them in form. We have the feathers that are earned for certain ceremonies. We have talons. Certain ritual dances that we do that Christian ideology will not embrace. You cannot serve. If you’re going to worship the Christian way God has given the Christians their way of worship. If you’re going to worship the Indian way, our spirit has given us a set of worship rules. Not how to do it, but this is what you do. Now do the feathers make us sanctified. No.

So it’s the bastardization of trying to mix Christianity with Indian - it can’t be done. I went to an Indian gathering where they sung the old rugged cross. That’s two different cultures here. I will buy a tape of Indian music - spiritual music - and there’s a standard they will throw in every time. You will hear Amazing Grace in flute. That’s not our way.

So I am not saying that my way is correct, this way is incorrect. That’s not the point of my argument. My argument is simply this. If you’re going to call it traditional in the ways of my grandfather then make it so. If it’s new age knock your lights out. I’m no one to quarrel with you.

I love my people so much that I know that the death of its language is going to be the death of its traditions. Languages are dying. I’ve gone to certain Pow Wows around here and I speak to them in Cherokee. You know what they tell me? “Oh man, we love the Apache language. What were you saying in Apache?” When you tell people of Cherokee descent and they’re out there saying “I’m a Cherokee Chief,” “I’m a Cherokee spiritual leader,” “I’m a Cherokee educator,” and you have just spoke Cherokee to ‘em and they don’t even know it?

I’ve been in Tennessee a little over a year and I’m learning enough Eastern Cherokee to talk to these people in large groups. I’ve been to several gatherings here and I’ve yet to speak Apache. I speak Cherokee to them, and they’ve not caught on yet.

So to make all of this babble kind of tie in to a final thread is that I’m so proud of my people that I will put myself on a soap box and spot my words in a manner that my essence in life - I was put here - my vision and my quest is this - I want somebody to open up a damned book to shut my mouth up because once they start researching what they say they believe in they will understand what I am saying, and they will still say, “Jon, you put it out in a very frontal approach, you have hostility in your voice, you have arrogance in your voice, and you’re not a humble man.” Well, these are traits that I have cultivated to do this with because if I come forth to a group and I am well liked and I don’t want to step on any toes and I’m viewed as a good guy by everybody then what good am I doing? I want to educate, and the only way to educate people in today’s time is you want to make them want to shut you up. So I come into an area with an air of know-it-all and I am the final word on Indian hoping that someone will crack the books. Because if I had done my job correctly here - I did not do something right here. Because I got involved with a local group, said my noise, and all I accomplished was I don’t get their newsletter and they don’t wave at me on the street anymore. But no one cracked a book, and that’s all I’m about. I want to effect you in a way where I leave a bad taste in your mouth and you want to prove me wrong.

Our people say this. “To give wisdom and enlightenment to a fellow human being is the greatest gift you can give.” And the only way that I can educate people about our ways is to make them question.

Most of the gatherings that I speak with are really not Indian gatherings. That’s only about 20 percent of my listening public. I go to reservations. I go to Indian schools. I go to Indians and talk. Because when I tell an Indian “Your lot in life is not constituted by the atrocities that happened hundreds of years ago - you make your life today - then I have to lead by example. I have to be the person that left that reservation, who did not speak English until I was 17, who got a college education. I am a warrior. This is our home field. To tell me that I cannot compete among the visitors is a slap to my people. So when I tell somebody “Leave the rez, make a living but retain who you are” - “I did it” - when I tell these other people, “You too can learn your language, you don’t have to be raised in it.” I was raised to speak Apache. I’ve learned English, Cherokee, and I’ve learned several other languages. Did it just come to me in a vision? No, I studied hard.

Pride is more than a T-shirt. If the Indian people, card carriers or not, learn the ways of our ancestors, we again will be a great nation. Not as far as to control the political party of this rock. That’s been set. We will never have this rock again. But what we can do is make our lot on this rock a lot easier.

It’s a hell of a lot easier to jump around at a Pow Wow than to educate yourself and put yourself in a position to politically change the Indian law.

Editor: It’s a lot easier to be a part of a movement, to be a follower, than to actually take a stand.

JT: And as a last thought to the people who are going to read this, I wish to offend no one, I say what’s in my heart, if you’re interested in hearing more I have tapes that for $10.00 plus $1.50 shipping and handling, you send me your question and I do not send you a tape that just covers everything, I send you a tape dealing with your question. So at least you know I’ve personally read your letter. And why do I charge? Well, nothing comes easy. If you’re asking me, I’m going to get the information you could if you had just spent the time. So you’re paying me for my time, and that’s as honest as I can be.

Is it a non-profit organization? It better not be. It better put buffalo meat in my tepee. (Laughs) And if someone has a difference of opinion, then I will gladly debate and I will not wrestle with anybody and I will not meet anyone in the parking lot or a dark alley to settle this. No. But I will debate anybody. Then we’ll let the people who are listening decide. I side-step no one. I’m in the phone book and I make my presence felt everywhere.

I am Jon Thunder. Thunder is a noise before the storm. Aho.

Editor: I understand that with the Hopi’s that back in 1970-‘71, there was a wave of sightings of UFOs and some Hopi traditionals made a statement that this was part of their ancient ways, their understanding of prophecies that this had to do with the Kachina. They believed in UFOs and other worlds, and this caused a division among some of the Hopi’s at the time. But apparently they pointed to rock carvings out there that they claimed tells the story of other worlds. With the Lakota, the Cherokee, and the Hopi’s there’s a lot of emphasis on the Pleiades star system and how some even perceive it as home. I believe the Hopi believe that they started in the Pleiades and that they’re progressing to different worlds. This is like the third or fourth world.

So I just wondered if you might have any comments on the stories.

JT: As a traditionalist, I have always believed because I was raised to believe that we’re not the only existence in this universe. It is part of our tradition too. When I was in primary school, they were telling me there were nine planets, but I’ve been taught that there’s 27. They’re starting to realize now that there’s more planets out there. Pluto is not really even in our solar system. It is part of another galaxy. I heard that the other day on CNN. Our Creation stories have the Underworld, the Upper World, the non-physical, so we’ve always believed that we’re not alone.

Editor: It almost sounds like you’re talking in terms of other dimensions even.

JT: Now we’re getting into doctrine and theories. Like I have said, to explain - there’s so many words that we have that there’s not English words to describe the feeling or the emotion - for example, to say that we, as a spiritual people - in our spirituality do accept the existence of other life forms that automatically leads someone to believe that their concept of UFOs and what Hollywood has said that this is space travel and UFOs. One prime example is this. I was talking to someone and they said, “Oh if we could have contact with the outside - with the people from different worlds - their knowledge and their civilization would have to be so immense and so ahead of ours that when they land they’re going to bring world peace and peaceful serenity to us. Well, the way we look at it is the lessons of nature, the lessons of time. The sacred circle. We know, through our existence here, that the more educated and the more civilized that we become, the harder their atrocities to their fellow humans become. So civilization has never equaled peace.

Now do I believe in UFOs? I believe there are things that I can identify. Now the area that I’m in there are a lot of military bases out there. Hidden military bases. Bases we know are out there, but if you ask the government - Area 51 is not the first one. It’s not the only one and it’s not the last one.

There’s a lot of strange things going on out there. So is it military aircraft or whatever? In modern times, your guess is as good as mine. I’ve seen a lot of things at night in the desert of the Southwest. I’ve seen lots of things. Some things you’ll see repeatedly, some things you don’t. There was an object I saw one time that was so different that I thought that I would videotape it. I’ve got about an hour and a half of it. I went to great pains to put objects in the background to compare size, distance. I got that from watching movies of UFOs where people were trying to discredit. Now can I say this was truly a UFO? I can say that, because it is to me, but I could show it to someone else and they could say, “Look Jon. That’s what this is right here.” So my definition of that right now is a UFO. I don’t know what it is.

Your teachings have things that are not explained. Of course they do, and this is where education is sometimes a bad thing. In personal life education is the greatest tool there is. It is the key to everything. But education also has its downside.

I’m a traditionalist. But education sometimes comes with explanation of certain teachings that my ancestors held dearly to their hearts. The haunted mesa and the avenue of spirit voices. Well, this is Jon Thunder’s interpretation of what happened. I was in Page, Arizona, standing at Horseshoe Bend, and there’s a massive drop - maybe 150 - 175 (ft) drop, and you can see the Colorado River below you. The air is real thin. The elevation is high. My wife was there with me and it was a great night and she started playing her flute. It was an old song. Well, there’s a Navajo rez in that area and we went there and they were saying, “You know, last night we heard the flute music coming - and it was blowing - and we heard singing - and the spirits were alive.” Well, through education I know what happened. Echoes were bouncing off, because that’s why we did it. We went there and we saw what we had going. So in the old days, the air is so thin that there could be a group over here doing something and the voices would carry - so a lot of our tales sprung up - spiritual explanations for things. If something is unexplained we tell our people it’s unexplained.

I was reading an article one time how the red tail hawk got its red tail. It flew too close to the sun and got scorched. People actually believe that we Indians believed this. It’s like the kids. You tell them the story of Goldie Locks and the Three Bears. Those are kids stories. But it has a lesson. The Three Bears to me - I don’t know what the lesson is - but when I heard the story of the Three Bears it was when you leave home lock your house.

To read Part 1 of the interview, click here.

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