An Interview with Jon Thunder

by Brent Raynes

Jon Thunder, professional artist, Apache Indian, Native American educator and activist, wonders about the prophecy that the Indian Nation someday will rise again and how the White Buffalo will appear. Why does Jon wonder if the “light skins” might be the White Buffalo? What part do we all play in the medicine wheel? Also Jon says he’s ready to form a war party and he’s looking for a few good warriors. Find out what he hopes to accomplish and see if you might be interested in joining up. Also during our interview we rattled Jon some with the subject of shape shifting, and see what he had to say on that controversial subject, and much more!

Jon Thunder: In these Pow Wows and little gatherings that I’ve attended recently I was made to feel welcomed by the MC and drummers and people like that, but there were people out in the crowd that I know a cold shoulder when I freeze. So why do I do this? Because I wanna make friends? (Laughs) No, no. Whenever you assault what people have become comfortable with people react in two ways. They either embrace you and seek more of where you’re getting your input from, or they close doors to you, and, well, nobody can say that they’ve seen me hanging around with the crowd. I’m kind of a loner.

It has been my fortune, or misfortune, and it’s happening here (it happens everywhere) and I’ve already traveled down in Alabama and Georgia and we’ve got all of these historians and educators, and no one has approached me and said, “Hey, I think you’re wrong” or “Let’s talk about this” or “Explain more.” Not even “What did you mean by this?” What does happen is that the messenger is attacked. They try to dig up a little bit of dirt.

I’ve never told anybody that I walk a perfect walk. I said “I’ve got some history to put forth.” So when you do that I guess that my history comes along with it!

Do I do this for the attention? No. Who wants to be investigated. Anyone who has walked around in life if you don’t have skeletons or secrets then you haven’t done anything. And maybe I’ve already said too much there but the attention, no.

Something that I rarely talk about is my personal life. I will ramble for hours on history and political opinion and spirituality, but I rarely, rarely ever speak about my personal life.

You’ve met my ex-wife and I’ve never told anyone why we went our separate ways. But people “know,” and if you ask some of her best friends they “know,” but if you ask these best friends where she is living or what’s her phone number they can’t tell you. So I guess they were really good friends, eh? So you’re gonna hear from the horse’s mouth because I’ve got some other things to say, but I’ve got to clear this up first because if you want to attack the messenger then let me go a little farther. Sometimes being the wife of an activist can be kind of hard and years and years of having the relationship scrutinized, private arguments become gossip at Pow Wows and other functions. So after awhile it takes its toll. So somebody got tired of being an activist’s, politician’s and know-it-all’s wife.

If you ask anyone I owe money to or people that I do business with they will tell you that those checks and all communications still go through her. We’re the best of friends. There’s a lot of tongue wagging, but like I say if it’s for a lot of the reasons I’ve heard we wouldn’t be friends now, and we talk to each other at least three or four times a week.

So the friendship and the trust is definitely there. The weight of the lifestyle and the program and platform that I choose to run down isn’t easy. It’s not all that, but that is about 70 percent of the reason. And the other reasons is that anybody who does know me they left a couple of hours ago (laughs).

But what’s going on now is that you can run around in circles and circles and circles and keep telling everybody the same thing, but my book (and when I say my book it’s this path that I’m on) has more than one chapter. Our last interview I’m really thankful that you’ve kept it on that long because a lot of people, as recently as two weeks ago, have told me that they’d read it. So now this is phase two.

In my first rant it was be honorable and support your family and maximize yourself. All right. Everybody is saying that. Chapter two is now how do we do this. I went to these Pow Wows. Nobody is making money. Gas prices has a lot to do with it, but that has a lot to do with everything. Vending space has gone up. People are watching their spending money a little bit more tightly. All of these considerations put to the side, I’ve been to several Pow Wows and most of them have more vendors then what they have people in there. Nobody makes any money at it. So how do you make money being an Indian? Well, when I go to these Pow Wows they’re way out of town and the setting is great. You can’t argue that the atmosphere isn’t there. But that’s the problem. The point is that when the circus comes to town, or any other activity (the rodeo, or the demolition derby) they don’t get miles and miles out of town. They’re right there either at the rodeo grounds or each town that’s large enough to make money. But promotionalists say that we can’t afford that. Well, of course not, because I’ve noticed that there’s several different bands of Indians that I’ve encountered, and though they do have a great idea of let’s put on Pow Wows and stuff, but then when one group from one area puts on a Pow Wow there’s another group that’s going to put one on just down the road, and then they’re going to try and sabotage this one and all of that, and so we’re not learning from the history of our people. We’re still fighting each other.

For example, the state of Alabama. If you were to divide it into four parts and all of the Indian tribes in each corner get together with the groups in that section solely for the purpose of frog skins (make some money) and they put aside their differences and theologies, this is how you wear a feather, this is how you beat a drum, and put all of that stuff aside, they ought to get together and each should have a peacetime chief, pick one and get together and throw one big Pow Wow.

When I’ve been traveling around and looking at the Pow Wow promotion around here I’ve been seeing that they promote it but it’s like 2 or 3 days, within that week of the Pow Wow. They’re counting on signs on the side of the road. Well, how many signs are there on the side of the road now. You don’t really see them. It’s not promoted. When I’ve been on my way to a Pow Wow I’d stop at a store and fill up with gas or buy something, and I’d tell people that I was on my way to the Pow Wow and they’d say that they hadn’t heard about it. They’d say if they had known they’d have saved some money. So if you had this many different tribes working together to put one big Pow Wow on and it’s advertized in the media, then the public may just get interested.

When the public shows up what do you do? Well I’ve gone to these Pow Wows and people are told that they can’t take pictures. Well you know if it’s all about the picture taking and it kept your spirit or whatever is going on wasn’t that taken at the DMV. If you’ve got a driver’s licence your picture has been taken. If you’ve grown up in public schools and you’ve got an annual, then there you are. Several times your picture has been taken. And if you’ve been in trouble with the law well oh my God, they’ve even got your profile.

There isn’t anyone out there, not even someone from the middle of the reservation in the Southwest or up in the Badlands can say they’ve never had their picture taken or understand some process of photography.

Money and spirituality are too different things. I’m on a money rant right now. Okay, so you promote it and have people bring their cameras, bring your video cameras. Bring whatever. Capture this stuff. You get in your finest regalia and you strut your stuff. Dancers should have glossies made and promote themselves. Get out there and be in competition with yourself. Get out there and attract attention. Have a little booth there, and when people see you’re dancing and that your approachable and no one has to ask your permission to take your picture, because what they’re doing is saying that they want to take a part of this home with them. You should be honored. Share. And once you start to get a following then that’s when your personality, knowledge, and your charisma and your showmanship comes into play. They start looking for you at Pow Wows and when a Pow Wow is being promoted they call the promoter and ask “Is this dancer going to be there?” If you get so many calls then instead of you having to be out the money you might just get paid to show up.

Bro, I’m in a new war. Well, I’m still on the war path and it’s still there, but now I’m looking for warriors. What am I fighting? Poverty and ignorance. What do I want? Well, you know what. I was walking around here and I was going, Man. There is a term called wanna be. I’ve heard it before but I really didn’t start using it or believing in it till I came around here. And I’ll tell you what my definition of a wanna be is. It’s that even though they know the history and they choose to do it in a Hollywood way, which they try to present as accuracy, and that to me is a wanna be.

When I walk into a room there’s no question of my ancestry but I can do things wrong, and I’ve done it. I got someone to make me some Apache regalia for this climate and so the only thing traditional about it is the material in the pants mostly. Other than that no. The breech cloth is real fine and thin. I couldn’t find a pattern in time of an 1860-type shirt that I wanted so I wore one of my old faded chambrays from Wal Mart. It does the trick. My vest is supposed to be leather and was cut from the same type of cloth as the breech cloth, very light. The moccasins that I wore were by no stretch Apache boots, or even Indian boots. They had an Indian look to them. It looked good, but it was store bought.

No one questioned that. So I adapted. I don’t have the material or the resources right now for people to make my things.

Editor: Well you’re the genuine article yourself. 100 percent, or 99 percent.

Jon Thunder: Well am I full blood? Well look at me. My card says so. I think so as far as it says so, but am I? I hope not. I hope that somewhere down my ancestry line that someone got a little crazy and stepped out of the circle. But is the Native American blood most dominant in me? I could shave me head and I’d still be an Indian, just by visual.

When I get around other Indians at Pow Wows and I go up there and I’m shooting my mouth off, “Do it right.” “Do your research.” All of this. They even come up to me and go “Hey, Mister Traditional Let’s Do It Right. What about the store bought moccasins you’re wearing? What’s this? It just looks Indian. It was even done on a sewing machine. Come on.”

Editor: Tell ‘em you’re a shape shifter.

Jon Thunder: Don’t say that word! Oh, I’m getting dizzy, but my medicine is strong. (We all laugh) You know that in some circles that wouldn’t even be something to joke about, but I think that humor is a lot stronger than fear.

But anyway, a light skin can walk in and have all the tassels, fringe and feathers, war paint and all of that, and they still get ridiculed, or they can just wear a T-shirt that says “Indian and Proud,” and somebody is going to bring it into question. Or they can wear their clothes at work or around the family that says “I’m an Indian” and all of the cousins come up and say “Well I’m not” and your co-workers, friends, and people down the street go “I knew him when he wasn’t,” and so on and on, but they still choose to do it.

If I got arrows, sticks and stones thrown at me for being an Indian, would I still be an Indian? I don’t know. I’ve never been in that position. I know that we’d all like to think “Yeah,” but speaking honestly I don’t know. I’ve run from different things in my life, so why not that. I hope not, but anyway they take this abusive stuff, so in their heart they wanna do it, and as I’ve traveled around to these Pow Wows I don’t see too many full bloods out and about and getting up there and running their mouth and trying to do stuff like that. It’s all done secretly. I look around and what I see is light skins, light skins, light skins. And I’m thinking to myself: “You know, our people say that there’s going to come a time when the Indian Nation is going to rise again and the White Buffalo will make its appearance.” And this is my little tangent. This has nothing to do with history or something I could reach back to and say this is my reference. This is Jon Thunder going crazy.

Joan Raynes: Jon Thunder unplugged.

Jon Thunder: That’s a good one.

Editor: That’s what we should call this interview.

Jon Thunder: But what if the White Buffalo isn’t just a metaphor but what if it’s the light skins. Because when I go to the Pow Wows it’s the light skins who are out there dancing and all fringed out. I look at the vendors. It’s the light skins. I look at the public it’s the light skins. And if you wanna take a census count, which I haven’t so I’m just pulling a number or percentage out of the air, but I’m willing to bet that if you start numbering full bloods and light skins, actually who is out there, whether it’s wrong or right, getting attention to the Indian people, I bet the light skins outnumber them. I wish that statement would stick in my throat, but I’m trying to speak very honestly here, and if I’m wrong prove me wrong.

So who is this White Buffalo. Well, there’s a lot of laws that have been around here that’s affecting Indian history, grave sites, and even some of the light skins when I have asked why do you want documentation? What are you going to do with it? The answers I have been getting back have been surprising me. Most of them say we want to have possession of feathers, if we so desire.

Look at our politicians today. How many are running on an Indian campaign and saying “We’re going to do right by the Red Man”? None. How many of the full bloods are into education. We’re not there, so in today’s society I’ve really become acutely aware that the full bloods aren’t really doing anything to move this thing forward. We’re all sitting back on the res and dropping out of school, and when we do come out here and mingle among the light skins, we’re causing trouble, and I’m included in that.

Editor: I think that when it became legal back in 1978 and the federal government allowed ceremonies like the sweat lodge to be practiced again, they had been outlawed

Jon Thunder: Law, law, law!

Editor: And we had people like Sun Bear and Rolling Thunder who were trying to bring back and to make available to everyone Indian ceremonies, which wasn’t a real popular thing prior.

Jon Thunder: But think back to my previous paragraph. When I mention percentage-wise. I’m not saying that none of the full bloods are doing this. I’m saying that when you put the numbers out there it’s more the light skins doing this stuff.

Editor: Of course, I’m saying that Rolling Thunder and Sun Bear are both passed away now. They were at the front of this effort. Now, off the top of my head, I don’t really see an effort among Native Americans right now, like you’re saying, to do this.

Jon Thunder: It’s the light skins. And yes, they’re doing it wrong, and anyone who has read my interview before they kind of know what I mean, but anyway what if the White Buffalo is a light skin who is going to get the education. Maybe you and I won’t see it, maybe our children will see the start of it, but wouldn’t it be grand if our grandchildren could actually see someone who was proud to be Indian in a position to make laws, because that is what governs us now. In a romantic society, to think that we’re going to go back to a society like what was at the beginning, well we’re talking about a major catastrophe for it to go back to the way that bows and arrows, sticks and stones, and yes, even when a man’s handshake means what it’s supposed to. We can read about it, we can watch it in the movies, and we can go on weekends and play it, but when we leave and we join the real world it’s gasoline and going forward, and that’s just the way it is.

We are the medicine wheel. If you know our history, you know Indians accepted everybody. All of the colors of mankind are in the wheel. Yes, it’s for the four directions too, etc., etc. I was talking to my son, and he’s not an activist in any way. If someone asked him if he was Indian he’d say, “Yeah, but I’m an American.” I asked him about that and he goes, “You know, dad. I’m just an American. I’m aware of my heritage. You and I disagree on how we should present it. But I have that right.” And he does and I have no qualms with that. At the Pow Wows I’ve said my rambles at them but then I sit there and people come and talk with me and I’ve been listening. There’s a lot of people that I’ll ask “Are you Cherokee?” They’ll go, “Oh yeah, I’m proud to be Cherokee.” I’ll go, “How come you’re not dressed in traditional Cherokee presentation?” And they’ll go, “I like this and this is cool.” And I’m going, Okay, as long as these people are doing what they like and they’re willing to endure the slings and arrows for it, then it’s more right and it’s a truer presentation of what our people were because we were into doing what we felt was right, regardless of what anybody else said. So if that’s why they’re doing it because it just feels right, feels cool, and that’s how they interpret being an Indian I’ve got no problem with that. It’s the ones that put themselves in the position of leadership and as educators that promote that that’s how that tribe did it, that is the genocide of our people, and it sneaks in very, very subtle, and people go, “Why does it matter?” Well, let’s jump on to a religious thing for just a second. In the Bible, one of the last versus says “Woe to him that changes or adds to this book in anyway.” Everybody goes, “Yes, yes. Of course.” They believe that to be true. But then when I ask, “Was Jesus a carpenter?” They go, “Yes, he was.” With the war that’s going on in the Bible lands we see what that country looks like and when archeologists do their digs of homes and stuff to find proof of Jesus in that century, are they finding wood? Where are all these trees? A carpenter needs wood. They’re finding stones, like stuff is made of today. So why couldn’t we say that Jesus was a mason? So sometimes the obvious is there but because somebody is saying it in a different way you forget what is there. And you can do the history of that part of the world and there is no mention of a catastrophe from the time of Jesus to now that would have turned it into the desert that it now is. So no, it has been that way for awhile.

So there’s always a lot of things being changed around for convenience and that is where the true history of our people is going. So yes, right now it’s money making and trying to get ahead in life. The popular visual is of the fringe and feathers and of the real intricate bead work. I do love it. The only reason maybe that I’m not decked out in fringe and stuff like that is that well I’m kind of short and squat and so if I had regalia that had the fringe and all of this stuff I’d just look like the little Hamburglar (laughs).

Right now I’m trying to get a plan together but the whole scope is that if we can work in units and make some Pow Wows that do attract the public and we can make some money at this well maybe each group, if the money starts coming in, can contribute a little bit to an educational fund and we can get within that quadrant a person that is in school, whether it is female or male, who is already in school and has good grades and shows promise.

Then you start cultivating. And within the state of Alabama, if all four quadrants are trying to promote and to find their White Buffalo, then maybe, when people see that someone has been helped by Indian money, regardless of whether the government recognizes these groups as Indian or not, so long as it comes from the heart and it is done in this manner, it is Indian money from a group of tribes that don’t need the stamp of Uncle Sam. Then maybe we will get somebody in there who may change the laws that will benefit us.

Right now, like everything else I come up with, it’s a little off key and it’s way out there, but I’m looking for people who believe that the Indian Nation is going to have to take a look at itself for it to be able to exist 50 or 100 years from now.

Editor: You haven’t met Tom Hendrix yet?

Jon Thunder: I’ve heard a lot about his wall.

Editor: For years, down in Florence, Alabama, he was the organizer of what was called the Singing Rivers Indian Festival. It was an annual event and he would get in different tribes from around the country. The full bloods. He strived to keep it very authentic. When you meet him you will soon find that he’s very factual. His great-great grandmother, whom he wrote a book about, was a full blood Yuchi. He’d be a really good person for you to meet and to discuss all of this with.

Jon Thunder: In the ways of the Indians, there’s one thing that we all agree on. It’s this thing that you earn your way, you earn respect. That’s why you respect the elders. You respect nature. You respect yourself. And so, if I understand what is going on today, and I hope that I am always learning, but you know what I’m kind of hearing is that because someone is born a full blood, something that they had nothing to do with, and though back in the old days, yes degree of blood had something to say on your voice within certain circles...definitely yes...but we’re not in the old days and all people have to change. Anything in nature, anything that is stagnant and does not move forward dies. So we must remember our traditions and we must embrace our language and our spirituality, but we’ve got to move on, and I think that in today’s culture they have all of these carry on bags and waist things. Put your tradition in a bag, tie it to your waist and let’s take a trip. Bring it with you.

So who is more Indian? A full blood? A half blood? A person that maybe lost their blood the first time they nicked themselves shaving? It’s the knowledge of our history and our people and what they’re doing with that knowledge that makes an Indian today. We are the medicine wheel. We are white, yellow, red, and black Knowledge does not have a color. The Great Spirit does not have a color. It’s spirit! It’s not even smoke. It’s energy.

Who owns Him? The white people? The red people? The black man? The Chinese? Who owns Him? And I say him. Gender. Who owns it?

Editor: So the message as opposed to the messenger is the real important thing.

Jon Thunder: Right now I’m looking for a war party and the war party that I’m looking for is some people that say that this thing has to go forward. We will present our history, and if I want to dress with a peacock feather hanging out, fringe beaded, well hey I’ll beat the drum for them. As long as they’re saying that this is me expressing my Indian-ism. Have the balance.

I’m not looking for followers. There’s a battle out there and I want some help, and I want some people who want to gather and say, “Okay, we’ve got some questions,” and maybe I’ll have questions too. We get together, we come up with an idea on how we’re going to throw us a Pow Wow. I want to throw a Pow Wow. Do I know how? No. I don’t even know how to act at one I’ve been told several times (laughs). So if I don’t know how to act at one can I throw one. I think I can.

So what is my Pow Wow going to be like? It’s going to be like this. I’m going to use my visual to pull in the people. I’ll be dressed up as a turkey. I’ll have feathers coming out from everywhere. I’ll be a walking vender shop. There will be so many trinkets hanging off of me that I’ll be like a wind chime! And I’ll pull ‘em in! But we’re going to have cameras, cameras, cameras to promote this thing, and we don’t want any sour puss’s. We want people who are proud to be Indian. So proud that you can take a picture of them. I’m that proud! When they come out at the opening ceremony I want them strutting and the flashbulbs going off.

People may go, “Oh Jon, tradition!” No, I’m not talking about a traditional Pow Wow, which had its origins in the modern times or whatever. I’m not talking about how we did it. No, I want to talk about how this is how we’re going to do it! If we’re going to educate people then we’re going to have fun, and if kids want to get in there and dance with us, well oh my God I hope so!

I want people who can volunteer, maybe two or three hours a month, and if they can do that a week fantastic, but let us be kind of realistic here. We live in a tight world. Who really has spare time these days. But if people can contribute two/three/four hours a month to tutor someone. There’s Big Brothers and stuff like that, to kind of help people, and why can’t we start a thing with the American Indian movement. We need you now. We need you in our schools.

Now this is something that I’ve ranted about since I could breath. Anyone who says that they’re in a position of leadership of an Indian group and cannot speak the language, I would scratch my chin. Look at the ludicrousness of this. If I told someone that I am so engulfed in Latin American history, I study it and I’m an educator and I go out and teach people about it, and I’ve researched it, and then you ask me if I speak Spanish and I go no. So how come with Spanish or any other thing people go, “Ha, yeah.” But then with Indian, oh man, they can lead sweat lodges, which was an Indian ceremony. There were no white words there.

If I speak to a clergyman, for example, and he says that he is a representative of a doctrine, or a belief, and he has studied it and studied it, and when I ask him, “Can you speak Hebrew? Can you read?” He says “No.” Then he’s only studied what somebody else has studied or translated. You can’t go up to an old Hebrew or Jewish guy and start talking, because these old people who know this stuff aren’t going to open up to someone who hasn’t even taken the time to learn their language.

There’s a character who slithers around in this area, and I won’t use his name, and I’ve met a lot more like him that will speak in chopped phrases and will use the hand animation when they’re speaking and all of this, and then you find out that they’ve never even left Tennessee or Alabama, and I know Southern accents. I saw a camouflaged Indian and I walked up to him, and this was really giving me a migraine and when I asked him, “What’s this?” He goes, “Man, this is what I like.” I go, “So you know this is not traditional?” He goes, “No, I’m Cherokee, and it would have been this and this. I’m just learning how to do this stuff.” And I’m going, “He’s having fun. What an Indian thing to do at a Pow Wow.” At that moment in time, he was more Indian than I was. We were at a Pow Wow, a fun thing. I was all serious with a stick up my butt and he was having fun.

So yeah, I’ve learned a lot of things. When I say I want help I want help to help to put a Pow Wow together, help to tutor some people, and I guess that by reading this people will get an idea of what I’m trying to form. If there’s anybody out there who wants to be a part of this and not a follower, but people who want to give input. I’m thinking that if I have a group, and of course I’m egotistical, I started it, but the proper way to say it, I think, is that if there was a group of human beings, and I don’t care what gender you come in, what shape or what color, if there is a group of human beings out there who consider themselves leaders and want to preserve the way of the American Indian’s past and assure their future then join me, and we’ll talk about this, because if there is a group of leaders where no one considers themselves a follower wouldn’t we have an energy ball, everybody trying to out do the other? And we’ll do an Indian thing. We’ll set Alabama, Tennessee and Georgia on fire.

There will be times for feather and fringe, and hooping and hollering and having a good time, and then there will be times for doing it right. There’s always a balance, and that’s basically my rant on this second chapter. The third chapter is being worked on as we speak, which will be once this idea gets off the ground. Where is it going to go, or is it going to go, I don’t know.

Now, you had brought up a certain subject. I don’t care. My medicine is strong.

Editor: Shape shifting.

Jon Thunder: Whatever I don’t want to answer I won’t.

Editor: We’ve been reading a book recently. We’re still in the first chapter.

Jon Thunder: Note, for anybody out there who kind of knows anything about this subject I want it to be noted that as we’re talking about this subject I have lit a cigarette. I’d love to use that as an excuse as to why I’m a smoker. But you can do the same thing without inhaling. You can do the Clinton. But I’ve got the habit, and it serves a double purpose here.

Joan Raynes: This book is about transformation. Learning how to transform not only physically, but mentally, spiritually, and emotionally.

Editor: Apparently the author has been all over the world, down along the Amazon and in Africa. He had gotten real interested in what different cultures had to say on spiritual elements, and how I guess their shamanic core knowledge can be used effectively in our modern world too. He had seen a little shape shifting, which he admitted at first he thought was just mind tricks, that he was caught up in illusions of mass hypnosis or something. He saw people who changed into trees or people who walked into solid rock and appeared say a hundred feet away sometime later. A shaman told him that there was more reality to those experiences than his mind was accepting. So he talks about shape shifting on those terms, the literal, and then ways that we can just change our environment and adapt and more psychological strategies which can work in the business world. He wrote that various shamans around the world wanted these truths to be brought out.

Jon Thunder: You know, in our last interview I mentioned an author. Carlos Castaneda, and the Yaqui way of knowledge of don Juan It really touches heavily upon the subject that we’re talking about. So it’s not a subject that hasn’t been put into print before, but in our spirituality how do you gauge the goodness. There has to be bad. Is it good or is it bad. It’s like anything else. It’s how it’s used. But, that said, it’s like this. Knowledge is a weapon and if you don’t know how to handle a weapon then you could hurt yourself.

The Bible speaks of not allowing certain things into your home because they attract negative energies. A Christian wouldn’t have a Satanic symbol in their home or a skull, because it attracts energy. Well, when a person is seeking knowledge their mind is open, and there’s that saying that goes something like with freedom comes great responsibility. Just because you’re able to do something do you do it?

Well I think that if a person really wants to know about that element, we’re talking about a very high degree of spirituality, whether you agree with it or not. It’s on a very high level. I would think that you would need to understand the very basics of Indian spirituality and get that well digested and move then from there to a higher level. But to read someone else’s words you’re taking a very serious matter and listening to another man’s presentation of it, and is it good or is it bad. Evil can disguise itself and goodness can disguise itself.

Now I don’t know where I heard this, but there’s a story about a bird and it’s real cold outside, there’s snow and it’s freezing to death, and this horse comes by and defecates on it. Of course, the fecal matter is warm and so gives this little bird warmth and he starts singing. Well this cat hears him and eats him. So the moral of the story is that not everybody who craps on you is your enemy and not everybody who gets you out of crap is your friend. So likewise with this. The book can look pretty, the presentation can be real great, but where is it going to take you, and once you start dabbling, like with an ouija board, it attracts entities. Now this is just my opinion of this. There are others out there that are just as good as mine. Other spiritual things that are used call on energy. A book is a weapon and once you read those words because if you’re talking about that level then you also have to believe that, and for lack of a better word, there can be magic going on while you’re reading this, and doors and locks are being pried and picked. It’s fire. I’m not the person to tell you whether or not it is a good thing or a bad thing, or something to follow or not to follow. But I will tell you to walk very cautiously. You’re dealing with a very serious matter.

The subject that you opened up is a belief and an acceptance that is dominate in the area that I call home. So it’s something that I’m very aware of but personally, the way that I gauge what I’m supposed to be doing is that I believe everything in the physical world is a lot easier than what it would be in the spiritual world. Physical I can see it.

If I could do it would I obtain that type of energy or that type of plateau? No, because I’d mess it up. I’d do something very stupid. Because I can’t even change my shape now, you know what I mean? I’ve got all of the tools to change my shape and it’s not easy, and I’m getting larger and larger.

I said something in humor that I meant seriously. We live in a microwave society. It used to take a while to boil rice. Now we’ve got three minute rice. That wasn’t quick enough and then we went instant. And we want to attain enlightenment and knowledge and plateau’s, we want visions, but we can’t even speak the language; we want honor names and totem names and stuff like that and back child support is stacked up and we abuse alcohol and there’s the pot dealer, and Oh My God, but Oh wow I’m having spiritual visions. We want it, we want it, but we don’t want to give anything back. So what I’m saying is that if a person, such as myself, does not have the discipline in life to do what’s really good for my body, for I smoke cigarettes, I’m a little overweight, I love junk foods. This freedom sucks!

I’m a very arrogant person. I know that I am. Leaders are not made. They’re born. And I’m not taking up space here. I’m here to do something. So I come off as being arrogant, and there is a reason for that. I think that I told you before that I have a lot of confidence in myself. I am Apache. I have confidence and I believe in what I’m doing, and I have a pride and a love for my people. So when you put all of those elements together, and then you throw in Jon Thunder who was born with an ego, because my momma told me I was pretty and talented (we all laugh). You’re not calling my momma a liar are you? So when you put all of those things together and sprinkle a whole lot of ego you have Jon Thunder. I’m not a wall flower and I’m not meek. I live up to my namesake.

So yeah it’s the war party, it’s the hunt for the White Buffalo. I want to put together a group of people who want to put out Indian knowledge, past and future. Is this going to be for free? No, not if we’re going to set up a fund for somebody. A scholarship. It’s not going to come free. I’m talking about making money as an Indian. I’ve done it all of my life. I’m going to show you some secrets here. But we’ve got to do this right, and if there’s anybody out there who wants to make money being an Indian, that’s who I am looking for. But we’re going to have to be Indian. Not what Kevin Costner says we are. We can’t be what Hollywood and Grade B movies say we are.

If I’m saying that I’m Apache and I’m standing before some people and I’m presenting an historical presentation then let me be dressed as an Apache. But then again I would love to be able to come out also and say that this is how I express me. And I do it in so many different ways because if you look at my paintings, a lot of the Indians in my paintings do have that fringe and those feathers, so I may not have to put on the regalia . Maybe I can get the same thing done by painting it. I don’t have an animal totem name. But how many animals do I paint? So I’m just getting it out in a different way. What’s my spirit name? Do I have one? Of course I do. Does anyone know it? No. Do you know why that is? It’s because we’re a superstitious people and we’ve got shape changers, the Deer Woman, and so if we mutilated our enemies in the old days so that they would not cause harm to us in the after life then we have doctrines that are strange to other people. And when you cross over there’s a war going on over on the other side too and they’re looking for recruits and they’ll be calling you and if you’ve been worshiping the light then only it knows that name. But if you go around telling everybody your name anybody could be calling you.

So chapter two is like getting the crowd. Get the feathers and some fringe going, get the lights and whistles, bring your cameras and kids and vendors who have some good stuff. Know what you’re selling. Presentation is everything. I’ve gone to Pow Wows and they have a lot of people doing the same thing right next to each other. Sometimes it all just runs into one thing. You’ve got to pull together. Back in the old days that’s how it was. You pulled your resources and you split the bounty. You have one vendor working against another and they’re both selling the same thing then they’re competing. A Pow Wow is not about competition. It’s about making a little money and having some fun and go and pay some bills. It’s called networking, I guess.

And the only reason that I’m going to use the word Pow Wow is that..well, I probably won’t even use the word Pow Wow. Yes! How about “A Human Gathering.” That’s what we’ll call this. Humans with Feathers Gathering! (Laughs) You show up with a feather.

Once the drumming starts I don’t want it to stop. It’s going to be at night. As soon as the sun disappears the drumming starts and when the sun picks its head up that’s when the drumming stops. So for that kind of drumming you can’t be too picky on who wants to beat on one, so it’s going to be about fun, and I believe that if somebody stays up till 3 o’clock in the morning just to have a run at the drum he or she must really love to beat on it.

One thing that you notice is that when a successful circus comes into an area that’s it. There’s really not another one for awhile. That’s the secret to making money off of the public. You’ve got to corral them.

Editor: The big event.

Jon Thunder: The big event. And if you have people who love our culture and they don’t care about people taking pictures, they want somebody to stop and ask them questions and touch it and see how it’s put together, and here, take a picture of your little kid with some of my regalia on him. You don’t think they’re going to remember this the next time it comes back into town versus one where “Oh, you can’t take pictures.” “Oh man, we went to a Pow Wow. I wish I could show you some pictures, but they wouldn’t let me take any. I saw this Indian man, but he wouldn’t let me take his picture either. I couldn’t tell how his regalia was put together. I have always wanted to know, and he was right there, but no man, he wouldn’t talk to me.” Are you going to go back next year? No, you’ll save your money for the demolition derby.